608 Transcript

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:19)
Hey folks, welcome back to the Testing Psychologist Podcast. I have an interesting interview for you today. So this is kind of equal parts. I mean, it straddles the line between clinical and business and well-being. I’m talking with Dr. Daniel McGuff about burnout and demoralization and identity and ritual and fulfillment and lots of things wrapped up in that world.

Danielle is Equal Parts professor and planner and a ritual nerd. She believes that what we’re starting for isn’t better behavior, but a life that means something. For over 20 years, she’s taught communication and community building in higher education. She is the host of the Plan Goal Plan podcast, which is ranked in the top 1.5% worldwide and certified women-centered and elite life coach.

Who helps high performers and teams turn everyday routines into transformative rituals that avoid burnout and create sustainable success. she uses a mix of research-backed strategy, deep reflection, and playful energy.

And her mission is simple to help you realign not just with your goals, but with yourself. So this was a really enjoyable conversation with Danielle. we, I think, you know, had great rapport just from the beginning.

And we really get into things pretty quickly. You know, we’re talking about fulfillment, we talk about what it means, you know, identity in our work and how how to embody or shift our identities when we need to.

We talk about gender dynamics and the helper trap, the human giver syndrome trap, and how that comes comes into play in our profession.

Like I said, we talk about burnout versus demoralization and the difference there and how to address each one differently. Danielle talks about her framework for developing rituals, healing rituals, self-healing rituals. And we also talk about AI toward the end, which is

May seem like a little bit of a curveball, but I think Danielle like elegantly weaves AI into this discussion in terms of you know how we choose which activities are meaningful enough to engage in and and be present with. So there is a lot to take away from this conversation. This is definitely one of those where I am gonna be thinking about it after after the fact and trying to apply some of these things to my own life. So I hope that you enjoy enjoy this conversation.

as much as I did. So with that I will give you my discussion with Dr. Daniel McGow.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:07)
Danielle, hey, welcome to the podcast.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (04:10)
Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:12)
Yeah, thanks for being here. I’m excited to talk to you. You know, you fall a little bit outside like kind of my typical guests profile, I would say, you know, just from the work that you’re doing. But I think it’s super relevant and I’m excited to have this conversation. So yeah, just grateful for your time and appreciate you being here.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (04:29)
Well, I’m excited to be here and I’m I’m kinda used to being a little bit outside of the box.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:36)
Okay, okay, nice. So this is a comfortable role for you. That sounds good.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (04:39)
Absolutely.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:40)
Awesome. Awesome. Well, I’ll start with a question that I always start with with folks. And it’s essentially like, you know, of all the things that you could spend your time and energy on, like in this universe, you know, work-wise, what is what draws you to the work that you’re

Danielle McGeough, PhD (04:55)
I think the thing that draws me to the work that I’m doing right now the absolute most is just an intense belief that we should have full and rich lives and be able to access our most well and ambitious selves at the same time.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:15)
That’s pretty powerful. I mean, there’s a lot wrapped up in that. There’s

Danielle McGeough, PhD (05:18)
Yes.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:19)
that’s pretty yeah. I mean, I’m with you. I’m with you. I’m gonna, you know, people who’ve listened to this podcast for a while, you know, know that I made this big shift in my practice probably two years ago, you know, we’re actually like right, right sized, or you know, decreased the size of our practice pretty significantly. And

You know, I think that still kind of goes against what what a lot of people talk about, you know, in terms of like growing bigger and broader and all those things. and I don’t know. a lot of what I thought about was, yeah, how to have a more of a fulfilling life in that process. And I I think there’s a lot that we can pick apart with that.

And, you know, I’d be curious to get your perspective on, you know, how you might define kind of a fulfilling life or work life or, you know, balance or whatever, you know, whatever you might call it. Maybe we start there.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (06:09)
Well, I love that you in a lot of ways experience growth or more fulfillment through letting go. I think about gardening and pruning and the ways in which

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (06:21)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (06:22)
in order for plants to grow sometimes means that, you know, branches or parts that maybe are not thriving need to be cut off. And and I think that that’s really important and so

You know, for me, I think a fulfilling and rich life is just one first knowing yourself really well. Like who are you? And

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (06:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (06:45)
and what why does that matter to you? And how are you actively a creator and who you want to become? And I think that’s really important to me. I think that part of for me, I just want to experience a lot of things.

People will talk about having an experience of walking into a bookstore and almost having a melancholy experience that they know they aren’t gonna live long enough to read all the books that they want to live. And I’ve definitely

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:12)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (07:13)
experienced that. There’s actually a name for it that I can’t think of off the top of my head. But I oftentimes have this experience where I’m like, I’m not going to live long enough to have all the lives that I want to live that

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:24)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (07:26)
You know, I I like to have new experiences. I’m wildly curious. And for me a full and fulfilling life is, you know, getting to pursue those things in in my work life, but also having rich relationships with my family and, you know, being able to do the things that I wanna do well too, not to just rush through them and do them.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:48)
Yeah, yeah. I mean when you say that we have to know ourselves, it seems like there’s an identity component in there for sure. and you ha I don’t know, have some maybe a unique ish way of thinking about identity. could you talk about that just a little bit?

Danielle McGeough, PhD (08:06)
Yeah, so I first got really interested in identity actually while I was working on my master’s degree. And I was fascinated at around the intersections of storytelling and identity. And a lot of the research, particularly around family storytelling and identity, was looking at how the stories that we tell in our families help create a we identity. Like who are we as a family?

based off of the stories that we tell. And I became

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (08:37)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (08:37)
really interested in well, how does the stories that my grandma tells about herself and the stories that my aunt tells about herself, how do they actually make me understand me? And so how do in some ways the we stories impact the me development? And

So I got really interested in identity from there. I have a PhD in a funky field called performance studies. It’s sort of like theater meets anthropology and it’s housed in a communication

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (09:09)
Ha ha.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (09:10)
department. So it’s very interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary. And we see identity as we’re very behavioralist in a lot of ways. So

We see identity as something that you do, that there are these performances, that as we repeat them over time, we repeat ourselves really into existence.

So and of course, though pure repetition isn’t possible, there are failures and our ability to repeat. the actions that we do, we’re doing them in a society and a culture that they’re already attached meanings and symbols to those actions. and so all of that is it’s something that we both create, but we’re also constrained by all of the things, the meanings that are already attached to the things that we do.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (10:04)
Yeah, how does that apply to professionals and like high achievers? Can you I I don’t know, can you bring it to life a little bit with with maybe an example?

Danielle McGeough, PhD (10:15)
Yeah, so in a lot of ways you might think about, you know, how do you want to be in your practice? And

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (10:23)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (10:25)
what are the daily actions that you take that would actually make you become that type of practitioner? And so

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (10:33)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (10:34)
you might think about what you might use some future self language there, right? Like what is what’s that version of your future self and what are the actions that you could take today.

That would actually have you acting into that and how over time, even if you feel like you’re faking it right now, maybe you have some you know, imposter syndrome or something like that, that that faking it isn’t false, you know, it’s not fake it till you make it, it’s faking it is making it. And so those iterations, whether you chose them or not, are going to help establish who you are.

So even if you want to be a certain type of practitioner, maybe you’re really calm and you’re really organized, but you show up and you’re scattered and you’re all over the place and you have no systems of organization, if you keep repeating that, you might have an ideal in your head, but like you are kind of what you do.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (11:28)
Yeah, yeah. I think this is really important. I mean, I when I’m working with folks, I hear statements like that a lot. I’m guessing you probably do too, where, you know, it’s like, I’m not this, like, I’m not a math person, or like I just don’t get the numbers, or I’m not a g I’m an introvert, you know, I don’t I’m not good at marketing and you know, things like that. But it’s it sounds like I mean, you’re kinda saying like, hey, that’s okay. You can do things differently and sort of build this identity over time just by virtue of engaging in these behaviors.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (12:00)
Absolutely. That’s it.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:02)
Okay, okay. That’s good. That’s good. So

Danielle McGeough, PhD (12:04)
Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:05)
I mean I think that’s enlightening and or or or liberating maybe, that it kind of frees us up to to not be like bound by whatever identity we might think we have.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (12:15)
Yes.

And and I mean I think I have a very I think I’m a very agenic person. I believe that we have a lot of agency to choose and make those actions happen. Now, I do think that sometimes the place that we have identity, depending on who we are and the environments that we’re in and the different, you know, powers and privileges that maybe we were

kind born into or have experienced over time, there may be are cracks where that agency lies. There might just be cracks and fissures, but they’re there somewhere. And part of it is how do we learn to locate those cracks and fissures and how do we kind of get in there and break them open and explode them open so that we can create that new identity for ourselves.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (13:04)
Yes, yes. And I think maybe we’ll talk about some ways to to do that, you know, and you know, I want to pin that for for a bit. but talking about identity, I think I mean I think a big identity in our field. i our field is dominated by women, you know, I think that’s that’s pretty clear at this point. And, you know, we talked a little bit in our pre podcast chat about just how like

traditional gender identities, you know, can kind of influence the work that we do. And I wanted to spend a little bit of time on that. You know, you talked about, I think you called it human giver syndrome. can you speak to that just a bit and we can weave that into the work that we’re doing here.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (13:44)
Yeah, so that term was actually coined by Doctors Emily and Amelia Naglaski in their book Burnout.

And you know, really what they’re talking about is the ways in which women have been socialized to give, to put other people’s

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (13:56)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (13:57)
needs in front of their own. there’s so much research. So one of the things that I’ve done in my past is I was a director of women and gender studies. I have a gender and communication textbook, and so

that is something that I’ve been really interested in is how do we perform gender? How is gender something that we do? How is it something that impacts the way that we communicate, as well as how do we create gender through the way that we communicate? And you know, human giver syndrome is wrapped up in all of these ideas that, you know, our worth is placed in our ability to give.

To others. And so what that means is, you know, saying no carries a lot of baggage with it. I’m thinking about Linda Babcock’s work with non-promotable tasks as well. So there’s a lot of research that shows that women are asked to take on what are non-promotable tasks, which are the tasks that need to get done, but don’t actually advance your career in any way. And

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:01)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (15:01)
they also are more likely to say yes. And

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:04)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (15:05)
you know, I think it’s really easy, hmm I I’ll use sort of a domestic example, but I believe that this applies in the workplace too. It’s really easy to say, Hey, let your house get messy, right? Before guests come over. They aren’t gonna care. I you

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (15:23)
know, my husband can say that. You know, my my

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:25)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (15:26)
husband can say that to me, but he also probably isn’t the one who is being judged.

Like that we’ve also been socialized to expect women to be the ones that do that work and how good of a mother, a parent, a partner somebody is might be determined by the state of their home. And so it’s really easy to say, well just don’t care about it. just don’t do it. Nobody’s really judging. But also like that’s because you you know, like my husband hasn’t been socialized around that the same way.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:59)
Right, right. Yeah, I mean that’s a we’ve had that conversation roughly seven billion times in our house, I think. around you

Danielle McGeough, PhD (16:07)
Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (16:07)
know, that that exact thing. yeah, we talk about that a lot, you know, and I’m married to a counselor, you know, therapist, you know, so we kinda have this double whammy going on. But, you know, we talk about that emotional load, you know, that that women carry, around the home and I’m seeing this play out just over the last couple of months, you know, we’ve been doing a

Kitchen remodel and a little, you know, first floor.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (16:29)
Well that’s huge.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (16:30)
It is huge. Thank you, Danielle. That’s validating. Yes, it is huge.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (16:33)
Ha

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (16:34)
it is huge. But we’re almost done. I think today is like literally the last day, and they’re like cleaning and you know, everything’s getting wrapped up. But it’s been interesting, like watching her sort of navigate this project because she’s been the primary communicator with the you know, the folks who are doing the work. And I’ll come home at the end of the day and she’ll

Talk to me about the things that didn’t go well. And I’m like, did you tell Or, you know, what did they say about it? And she’s like, Well, I didn’t I haven’t s I didn’t say anything, you know, like I didn’t I didn’t want to, you know, I’m not sure like, you know, there’s a hesitation there, you know, whereas like for me, I would like jump on my phone and be like, Y’all need to fix this. Like what’s why did this happen? You know? So I don’t know. It just I’m just it comes to life, you know, it’s everywhere.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (17:15)
Yeah. Yeah. There’s so many ways that she’s probably been socialized that that’s not polite or that’s not

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (17:21)
Totally.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (17:21)
nice. Or also she might be responded to differently. So just so my partner is also an academic. We’ve got a double whammy there. And

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (17:29)
Awesome.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (17:32)
it’s really fascinating because we’re both in the same department and the same field. we study slightly different things, but we’re in the same broader field and

You know, we’ll talk a lot about how when he says no, people go, okay, fine, I’ll ask someone else. When I say no, they’re like, well, could you just do this little part of it then? Or like, what if we, you know, like they’ll kind of negotiate with me and I’ll talk about the labor of saying no. It’s not that I don’t know how to say no. It’s that sometimes I have to say it three to four times before

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (18:07)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (18:07)
it’s actually received. And

It can be so exhausting to do that. Or I’ve been taught to hedge my communication when I say the no, which means that it doesn’t get received as a no. And I’ve gotten a lot better at that. But even as I’ve learned some different skills, there’s other ways that people have been socialized to sort of receive my no differently. And so it’s kind

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (18:30)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (18:31)
of happening on both. You know, it’s not.

There are things that I can do and can control, but there’s also these larger system structures that I’m also working against in that. And that’s what I was kind of trying to talk about with like our performance of identity too, that we we have we have choice, but sometimes we’re also constrained. or how our performances are received by others is also constrained by the environment in which that performance has taken place.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:03)
Right, right. Can you think of examples of how this might show up specifically like in a you know, a helping field like psychology or I mean even among high achieving women, I think there’s there’s probably enough parallel there. so again, we can just like tie it to the work that we’re doing a little more closely.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (19:22)
Absolutely. So I think that it is really hard in those helping fields for people to charge money. And it is hard

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:31)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (19:32)
for women in particularly to ask for what they are worth. So there’s just a lot of there’s a lot of research done on that in part because we’ve also been taught that that’s just what we should do.

So

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:47)
Uh-huh.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (19:48)
even, you know, I I’m an academic and I run a business. And at one point I was doing workshops and I had them in nine different hospitals in the state of Iowa where I live. And someone asked me, they were like, well, how much did you get paid for that? And I was like, You can get paid for that. And they were like, You schmuck. You know, and it’s just

like in some ways I was like, well, I just want to help. I just want to do good. And there’s something that

when you add money in the mix, you know, is is that still helping? Is that still giving? Am I doing the human giver, you know, the right way

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:25)
Mm mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (20:27)
if I’m also charging? And so I, you know, I’ve noticed working with a lot of high achieving women, particularly in in fields where they’re also pro they’re charging, you know, so they’re owning a business or a practice or they’re entrepreneurs.

that there is a lot of work that needs to be done around our relationship to serving and money.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:56)
Sure. Yeah, we see that come up a lot in our practices. Yeah, that’s it is hard to charge money. or if not like charge money, but like hold boundaries, you know, like charge no show fees if people don’t show up, or you

Danielle McGeough, PhD (21:08)
yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (21:09)
know, negotiate if people try to negotiate with you. There’s there’s a lot of that. it’s an interesting way to think of it. You the way you framed it, I don’t know if this is what you were going for, but it kind of made me think like

Yeah, that’s a lot of cognitive dissonance to kind of hold these different identities. You know, like if you are thinking kind of embody this sort of human giver identity to some degree, there’s a lot of dissonance there to also like charge for what you’re doing and like can those coexist at the same time? And you gotta kind of like reconcile that that dissonance somehow.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (21:44)
Absolutely. You know, I had

an opportunity just yesterday. I was keynoting an event and one of the other keynotes, Vanessa McNeil, absolutely brilliant. She was talking about the rules that we write for ourselves.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:00)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (22:01)
And I think that there’s a lot of rules that we write for ourselves under this identity of a giver and what it

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:08)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (22:09)
needs to give and I think that part of the process is going well what are what are those invisible rules that have been guiding my my thinking and my action and then how can I rewrite either the core questions that guide those rules or is there another possibility where I can give and charge what I’m worth and that actually allows me to give more.

Or by holding the boundary of saying, no, we have a clear no-show fee. Does that actually give you a space to take care of the people who show up at a higher level? And so some

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:53)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (22:53)
of it is rewriting, I would say rewriting the stories that we tell ourselves about these things. And, you know, but

What’s so hard is we’re all so busy doing all the things, carrying all the cognitive load

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:04)
Yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (23:05)
and emotional load and all that stuff. And this requires a pause. This requires some time to go, let me dig underneath what are those unwritten, unspoken, invisible rules. And and how would I, if given the chance, how would I rewrite those and claim those as my new rules?

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:25)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I d I d I agree. I feel like that is kind of the unlock. Like if you can, you know, bring them bring these two ideas together or identities together, you know, and and just reduce that dissonance, right? And that’s a I’m right with you on that. Like I I also believe like charging more and having clear like financial boundaries lets you give more at both emotionally and maybe financially, you know, like maybe that

Danielle McGeough, PhD (23:50)
Absolutely.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:50)
allows you to offer like pro bono work, you if you’re charging what you’re

worth or whatever, you know, and the other aspects of your work. So I think that’s super important. You know, you the thing you just said about like, yes, this takes time to rewrite these stories, you know, like this sounds like an amazing activity, you know, to go through. But how do you talk with people about finding the time to do that? Cause this comes up a lot as well, where and you know, like as a consultant or coach or whatever, like there’s so many good ideas that could happen, but people are like, I’m

And busy, like I can’t like. What do you mean? When do I do this? You know, when do I take this space? How do you think about that

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (26:52)
or talk with people about?

Danielle McGeough, PhD (26:54)
You know, it’s so interesting because I got really obsessed with time right after I had my kids. And and I you know,

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (27:02)
Okay, okay. I like where this is going.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (27:05)
I started reading all of the time management books. I started to be a little bit more conscious about how I was even planning my time. And and I think that one thing that is really hard to do is go

what are the things that I’m going to really care about and have high standards around. And what are those things? And how am I going to put my energy there? And then how do I get somewhat relentless about saying no to the things that aren’t in those buckets? And

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (27:42)
Hm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (27:42)
and that’s really challenging. And I’m not sure it’s such a process too, because I think that

we do that and then a new layer of need to say no’s come about. And so you know, for me, I have a lot of rituals around my planning practices though, so that my calendaring work doesn’t just feel like another task or I have to spend time planning instead of doing. so I have a morning ritual. It’s ooey gooey

you know, cozy. I wear

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (28:16)
Ha ha

Danielle McGeough, PhD (28:16)
my snuggie. You know, I have a cup of tea

and I I have a notebook that makes me happy. I might even put stickers in it. And it doesn’t have to be a long practice, you know, on a daily basis. I’m probably only spending five to ten minutes in there. But just taking time and going, what’s actually on my calendar? How do I want to show up for these things?

What are the three things that if I did them today, I would feel really good about myself? and you know, what are the things that I need to say no to? You know, I woke up this morning and realized that I have a whole lot on my plate between now and next Friday. And I’m we have a guest speaker flying in from

North Carolina at the university in my

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:02)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (29:02)
own practice. I’m leading a three hour long retreat for a group of engineers next Friday where I have to leave town and spend the night in a hotel. And so there’s,

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:10)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (29:12)
and my husband’s traveling in between there to do a program review. And so there’s just a lot. And I was like, okay, I need to look at my calendar for next week. What are the appointments that actually do not need to happen next week? They could be pushed

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:26)
Yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (29:27)
back a week.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:28)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (29:28)
And

I just started to send out all the emails that said, hey, I can’t wait to meet with you, but I’m gonna need to reschedule. And because I know I need the space to be on for my kids that next week and for the things that I’ve committed to at work. I’m not gonna just show up, I’m gonna show up well. And so,

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:48)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (29:48)
you know, one of my biggest pieces of advice is how do you make that

not only a routine but a ritual where your planning practices don’t just become about time management, but are also a way for you to go, how am I being really intentional about how I spend my time? Because that’s part of what makes me me. What I do makes me me. And so I think of planning as personal development. I think of planning as a way to collect data on myself about myself.

It’s not just a time management practice.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:27)
There’s so much to reflect on there. even gosh, yeah, I’m not sure where to go with that. I mean, there’s so many good s good points. The just that element of being willing to reschedule appointments is really refreshing, I think. I really struggle with that. I don’t know. I imagine there are a lot of people out there who struggle with that as well, but I’m kind of like

If it’s on my calendar, it’s almost like I have given you my word that I will be meeting with you at this time, you know, and to talk about like identity, you know, it’s hard to break that like break that promise essentially. Like I feel like I’m letting people down or something if I ask to reschedule a meeting. But the way that you phrase it. Well well thank you.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (31:02)
What a beautiful approach. What a beautiful approach though. Right. Like I think

that’s like a beautiful way to think about it as I’ve made a commitment and I’m a loyal person and I’m gonna honor the commitments that I made. Also, you know, I would encourage you to think about what it would look like to create a little tiny experiment where

You might say to yourself, I want to be able to be fully present for the meetings that are on my schedule. If I rescheduled these other ones, how might that be me committing to being very present to them when we meet? And

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (31:45)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (31:45)
what if I just try rescheduling one of these meetings and just see what happens?

I want to see how people respond. I’m just gonna collect some data on this. And I’m gonna

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (31:58)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (31:59)
see if that creates some space for me to show up the way that I’d really want to for that meeting. And that takes the pressure off of like, I’m gonna do this all the time, and I’m just the sort of person that will reschedule all willy-nilly, right? And it gives you permission to go, this is just an experiment. We’re just gonna test this out. And as we do that, we’re gonna reframe.

maybe the important thing is being able to be present for the things that I have committed to.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:28)
I love that framework. I mean it sounds so nice when you say it. It sounds so nice.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (32:31)
Ha ha ha.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:34)
But I also like the permission to just do an experiment.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (32:38)
Yes. And and I wanna also acknowledge that the reason that you haven’t done that is because it served you and it reinforces a really lovely part of your identity. Right? That like being committed, being loyal, being someone who follows through on what you say you’re gonna do, that is a lovely identity. And and I think that

If you can in a lot of ways go, hey, I do this thing because it actually serves me. But here’s where it’s not serving me. What if? I think that that’s just so much more helpful than going, I’m just gonna be one of those people now.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (33:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So there are degrees here. It’s not all black and white. Yeah. There’s yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (33:34)
Absolutely.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (33:35)
Yeah. Yeah. No, this is good. This is good. You talked about your morning ritual. but we also chatted about how you have kind of like an end of day ritual as well, or you talk with people about that. Can you share with us how you approach kind of end of day rituals too?

Danielle McGeough, PhD (33:53)
Absolutely. I think that a lot of high achievers, I think this is even harder for women. And I think for people in care giving fields, in fields where you are helping and serving others the way that you all are, it can be really hard to shut off work brain. You know, you go home and

you know, maybe you’re answering an email during dinner or you’re rehashing, you know, a diagnostic you did with a client that day and the next thing you know it’s 9 p.m. and you’ve been home but you haven’t really been at home. And so how do you how can you use ritual as a way to mark that shift from work

to home. And so for me, a ritual com is composed of four parts. We reflect what is your current state at the end of the day and what’s your desired state. We intentionally plan what is part of that ritual so that it moves you from that state to another. We engage our senses so it’s a whole body sensory experience. And then we also think about how do we embody

That identity even after the ritual is complete. And it doesn’t have to be a long one. So it might just be something as simple as closing your laptop and saying, I’ve done all that I can do today to help others. And then taking a deep breath and shutting off the light in your office.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:36)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (35:36)
it might

be more extensive. You know, maybe you want to write down three things that you’re proud of that day or three tasks that you need to start the next morning with. But

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:47)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (35:48)
there’s all sorts of different things that you can do to kind of help move you to that desired state. And if you have a way to mark it rather than just kind of flying out the door, maybe you have a commute or if you work at home, I think it’s even harder

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:04)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (36:04)
because

you don’t have that drive to kind of mark the change in space. and so having something that just marks my work here is done and now I’m stepping into a new role is really helpful.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:21)
Mm. Mm-hmm. I like that. I like that. The so we didn’t name it explicitly, but this is like an actual thing that you know, it’s kind of a framework, right? Like the acronym is rise, right? Like yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (36:31)
Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. The it’s my rise

ritual method. The R stands for reflect. I intentionally plan as sensory activation. And then the E is embody the story that you want to live.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:45)
Yeah. That last part is the interesting one to me. Like when you say embody the story that you want to live, can you give us another example of what that might look like? is that like I’m creating the story of like I’m someone who comes home from the office in a good mood, ready to engage with my family or something like that. I totally made that up. That is not relevant for me at all. But I’m sure for

Danielle McGeough, PhD (37:05)
Yeah. Yeah, I love that.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (37:11)
somebody that might resonate. Yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (37:13)
Yeah, so

I had a client come to me and she said, Danielle, I feel like busy Betty. Yeah, Danielle, I feel like busy Betty and I wanna be relaxed, Rita. And that kind of I said, All right,

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (37:23)
Okay.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (37:24)
let’s do this. And I said, so tell me a little bit about what’s going on. And so she’s a K twelve teacher, and so what was going on for her is she was spending all day caring for other people’s kids, and then she was coming home and just

kind of frazzled and overwhelmed

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (37:42)
Sure.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (37:44)
with her own kids. And so we created a ritual that she could do in her minivan, in her garage, before she ever walked inside. And we actually tried to create a ritual she could do in her classroom, but she kept getting interrupted. And I think that that’s an important thing to note that you might

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:03)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (38:04)
try to create a ritual and do it in the office and then maybe that doesn’t work. So

you kind of have to play around a little bit to find one that works for your actual life. But for her, her faith was really important. And so she would listen to a a faith-based song and then she would journal just the length of that song. And we had a little ritual box that she put in her car and she put her journal back in there, put it away, and then she’d walk into her house and it was just a way for her

be in that relaxed state. But when we work together that embody this story, it was like, okay, so you did the ritual and you marked it. But like what does relaxed Rita look like after the ritual is over too? What does she look like interacting with her kids? What does she look like when she makes dinner that night? When she’s folding laundry, what you know, all and we would do just some work to go, what does this look like after the ritual’s actually over?

not just

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:04)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (39:05)
in the moment. And so I think that that’s a really important part of it, so that you can actually embody the state that you’ve shifted yourself into.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:17)
Yeah, yeah. I really like them. I’m gonna be I mean, I heard you know, I’ve heard this stuff before in some form or fashion, but it feels just more lively, you know, as we’re talking about it here. so you also make a distinction between burnout, I think, and demoralization, is that right?

Danielle McGeough, PhD (39:33)
Yeah, so I actually learned about this from one of my students.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:37)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (39:38)
she was working on a presentation in my class and also kind of explaining how overwhelmed she was feeling as a college student. And I said something to the extent of, wow, you don’t just sound burnout, like you sound demoralized. And she was like, my gosh, I think this.

pertains to some of the research that I’ve been doing. And

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:03)
Yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (40:04)
she was looking at the impact of COVID on K-12 teachers. And it turns out that there’s a lot of research around burnout for health practitioners as well coming out of COVID. And burnout is one of the things that we talk about a lot, that we’re just overwhelmed with the sheer amount of stuff.

And that can result in things like depersonalization and disengagement. But demoralization, while there’s an overlap, it is different. Demoralization is when you know what the meaningful work is, but you feel like the systems or the structures are keeping you from doing it. So the thing that my student said to me is she said, I want to be a K-Tail of teacher more than anything in the world, but I’m worried that the structures of

Education aren’t going to allow me to make the difference that I know I’m capable of making.

And so I I think in the research in the health field might be where I don’t know, working through insurance companies might make it so that you

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (41:12)
Yeah, that’s the first one.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (41:14)
Yes, you know, that you may not be able to you know, lead your your client or your patient through the process that you would necessarily first go to because there’s procedures you have to go through for

insurance or and and just being frustrated with sort of the bureaucratic processes that get in the way of you doing the work that you know would make a difference.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (41:38)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s really important. I I was gonna ask, what are some examples for us? And yeah, insurance feels like the the most obvious one. there’s also, you know, in the work that we do with assessment, the administrative work, I suppose, that versus the client facing work, right? So, you

Danielle McGeough, PhD (41:58)
Absolutely.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (41:59)
know, billing or writing emails or writing reports even, you know, things

Danielle McGeough, PhD (42:05)
Absolutely.

I know that I

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:07)
But

Danielle McGeough, PhD (42:08)
oftentimes get frustrated with the work that is proving that I’ve done the work instead of

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:13)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (42:14)
doing the work itself.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:17)
Right. That’s a good way to put it. It’s a really

good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. So do you I you know, we talk about burnout a lot or demoralization. Like how do you how does that distinction matter in terms of what we do with it, you know, like how we address it?

Danielle McGeough, PhD (42:32)
Well, you know, this is one of the things I think I’m still working around a little bit,

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:37)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (42:37)
but near as I can tell, burnout really does seem to be thinking about

load, right? What are all the tasks that we’re doing? Do we need to be doing all of those tasks? Are there any that we can automate? Are there any that we can delegate? And what I find with demoralization is it’s really about feeling connected to the meaningful work and feeling like not only that you can do it, but that it’s making a difference. And one of the things that I’ve been struck by in

you know, as of late is with the rise of AI,

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (43:17)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (43:18)
I think we’ve become even more obsessed with automaticity.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (43:23)
Yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (43:24)
And that’s a huge solution for burnout then, right? Let’s remove, you know, I’m thinking about women in particular, if you’re carrying that high cognitive, mental, and emotional load, well, how do we just make some of it automatic so that we don’t have to carry it anymore?

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (43:40)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (43:41)
And that’s

really great. I think there are some things that that is what we need to do. On the flip side of that is you can’t be present and on an autopilot at the same time. And it’s really hard to find automatic work meaningful.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (44:02)
Right.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (44:03)
And so I think that there’s this clash where this maybe.

could help with some of the burnout. But if what we’re really dealing with is also larger structural problem problems or just accessing meaningful work, we’re not going to get to meaning.

By making things automatic.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (44:30)
Yeah, I this is I wanna talk about this for a bit. This feels super important. I think about this a lot, you know, and I’m you know, I talk about AI a lot on the podcast, and I think I’m generally like optimistic about AI, you know, and think it’s helpful and all these things, right? But but it I feel like especially as time goes on, I’m like sort of constantly asking this question of does my brain

benefit from doing this task, which to me is sort of another version of like, is this meaningful? Like am I trying

Danielle McGeough, PhD (44:58)
Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (44:59)
to automate some kind of meaningful work? Or is this work that I, you know, I don’t necessarily care to be present for, quote unquote.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (45:07)
It’s just

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:09)
I don’t know if that, you know, resonates with you at all or like I how to make that distinction. I think I’m just kind of like thinking out loud how to how to work through this because it really does seem to be at odds.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (45:21)
yeah, you know, I when I’m talking about where we want to have habits and where we want to have rituals, sometimes I’ll use the example of doing the dishes. Right. Trin.con actually has a really beautiful thing where he talks about being mindful as you do the dishes and feeling

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:38)
yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (45:38)
the warm water over your hands and smelling the dish soap and everything like that. And I’m kind of like,

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:46)
Yeah, for sure.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (45:47)
I just want them done. Right. Like I just want them

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:48)
Yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (45:49)
done. Let me pop in a podcast and listen to like an awesome podcast like yours while I’m getting the dishes done. I don’t really need to be that present for it. And and I do think that that’s the same question with with AI is what are the tasks that I am okay saying I don’t want to be present for this, but where are the ones that by handing that over, maybe I’m losing

the creative work or maybe I’m disconnecting from my clients even more by not spending the time and putting this myself and and finding the patterns of my own. Or, you know, and so, you know, for me, here’s like a really silly one. I love the art of storytelling and I’ve never been a big fan of social media, but I do

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:39)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (46:40)
like the

the creativity of how do I tell a story on LinkedIn that complete strangers

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:47)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (46:48)
connect to.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:49)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (46:51)
I could hand some of that off to AI and it can do that. But I also wonder, does that feel as juicy, as meaningful, you know, as sitting down and actually crafting the story on my own? Or

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (47:11)
Yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (47:11)
what’s a way then I can use AI where maybe I am crafting the story and it’s just helping me?

refine and

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (47:19)
Right.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (47:20)
it’s more of a collaboration instead of hey make me a post on identity right and high achievers like that’s very different than I had this experience with a client and I want to tell this story and here’s how I’m thinking about telling it and could you help me generate three different hooks you know but you know I coach

And that’s very different than the work that you all are doing with diagnostics. But, you know, I want to look through those sessions and find some of the patterns of my own. You know, like I don’t want to hand all of that off to AI because I also think I’m not going to connect with my client in the same way.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s a great example. and your LinkedIn is good, by the way. Just to give a shout out, there’s a lot of

Danielle McGeough, PhD (48:11)
Okay.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:12)
not good LinkedIn out there.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (48:14)
Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:15)
I think it’s almost become a meme at this point in terms of like LinkedIn

Danielle McGeough, PhD (48:17)
Ha ha ha.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:18)
posts, you know. But just for the record, Daniel’s LinkedIn is good. So go check it out.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (48:21)
thank you. I have fun with it.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:24)
It is good. I mean, that’s a but that’s a great example, you know. And as you were talking, I was thinking, at least in my experience,

There are times when I know that the that AI could maybe do the task technically better, if that makes sense. Like it could be like a better writer, maybe, or it might be a little better organized, but there’s some real value in letting that go and just engaging in the task for myself, and kind of like fighting through it and you know, dealing with whatever organic.

roughness, you know, might be present, you know, in the output. how do you do you think do you have to cross that bridge at all?

Danielle McGeough, PhD (49:08)
Yeah, and you know, I think about this, I think it’s so how I think about AI for you and I and many of the people listening to this versus my students is very different too because I think

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:20)
Sure.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (49:21)
that I was very fortunate that I had to learn a lot of things old school and

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:29)
Yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (49:30)
go through the process of learning those skills.

And so now when I interact with AI too, I’m like, you know, we bring all of the professional knowledge of earning all of the degrees and all the client interactions and and all of that with us. And so also if it messes up, I know to recognize the errors. And I’m really worried about how that’s a different experience if you haven’t done the decades of

other work.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:04)
Yes.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (50:05)
at the same time, you know, as you know, as a college professor, I also want my students to know how to use it in ways that don’t cause brain rot, but actually are creative

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:17)
Yeah.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (50:19)
and

are these more robust ways. But then I I will say that I think when AI is used really well, I’m not sure how much of a timesaper I actually think that it is.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:35)
Mm. Say more about that.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (50:40)
When I find that I’m really engaging AI. So if I am, you know, like let’s just use the social post as an example,

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:49)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (50:50)
but I’m spinning I’m coming up with the original idea, I’m interacting with it around hooks. I’m, you know, the next layer, the next layer, even with, you know, client stuff.

I might, you know, help me kind of brainstorm an activity that might be helpful with this client. And this is sort of what I was thinking. Here’s some things that she likes. Here’s some things that have worked for her already. I’m giving it all that information and then it might make and I’d be like, that doesn’t quite work. You know, and so we’re going back and forth. And by the time we do that, I probably could have just done it on my own. I maybe

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:25)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (51:26)
couldn’t make you know, this morning I just

Created three activities for one of my clients and they’re really pretty, right? They’re nice, interactive PDFs that I definitely

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:36)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (51:37)
would not have been able to create in that sort of a time. But the activity itself really did it was something I brainstormed with Chad well, actually this was with Claude into. And so

I don’t know. I think in the past she just wouldn’t have gotten a pretty PDF. She would have just gotten an email with here are three activities, go for it.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:00)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s a good way to put it. Yeah, I think I’m in the same boat. Like like you said, when you’re really engaged with it, you’re still spending the time, but the quality of the time feels different. Like I feel like I’m spending less time on the kind of minutiae or like the

Danielle McGeough, PhD (52:17)
Yes.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:17)
clerical kind of stuff and more time engaged and actually, you know, thinking through it and hopefully creating a better product.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (52:26)
I hope so too. And I I tend to be an AI optimist as well. my husband is a little bit less so he had an opportunity

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:33)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (52:34)
to take an AI course through MIT and that

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:37)
Mm-hmm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (52:38)
was a really fascinating experience. But you know, I find that when I use it, it can actually stir up creativity in a way that is really exciting and I don’t

it kind of removes some of the barriers to to making and creating that I really appreciate. and I’d be so fascinated to talk to you about, you know, how I I’ve been really interested in how AI can also be really useful for people with neurodivergence and different, you

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:13)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (53:14)
know, you know, like different learning

needs I think that that’s pretty exciting.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:21)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. yeah. I did a little talk for our school district, I don’t know, man, maybe six months ago now, but you know, it was that was a big part of it was like how can we utilize AI to to help our neurodivergent students. and you know, creating like maybe like stories on perspective taking or help, you know, work through social challenges or like personalized tutoring, you know, for learning issues or something like that. I mean

Danielle McGeough, PhD (53:47)
Awesome.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:48)
I think there are a lot of cool examples. yeah, I mean it’s you know, it’s that whole thing like you know, using the powers for for good versus evil, you know. But

Danielle McGeough, PhD (53:56)
Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:57)
yeah, I think there’s a lot there. It’s a that’s a fun topic to think about for sure.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (54:02)
Yeah, I it’s it’s changing the world and how we work.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:06)
Yes,

it is. Yes. Yes. Well this has been a fantastic discussion. I feel like there’s so much that we could get into. but you know, we have to have to draw the line at some point. So how can people find you? Like what are you up to? if people wanna learn more, like, you know, get into your material, what’s what’s the best way to do that?

Danielle McGeough, PhD (54:28)
Well come and find me on LinkedIn. I’d love to connect that way. And you can also just check out my website and podcast plan goal plan. I love working with

I really love working with professionals that are doing amazing work like you know like clinical psychologists and making the world a better place and so you know I would love to see if there’s ways that I can support your team. I do a lot of retreats and workshops and

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:00)
Mm.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (55:01)
speaking and if there’s ways that I can support you all in any way, I would love to do that.

Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:08)
Love that. Love that. Well, I’m super grateful for your time and we’ll put all those resources and everything in the show notes for people to check out. this is a cool discussion. Yeah. Yeah. I really I really enjoyed it and we’ll be thinking about a lot of these a lot of these things afterward in my own life. So thank you for that. And thank you for being here.

Danielle McGeough, PhD (55:26)
Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.

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