Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:20)
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Testing Psychologist Podcast. Welcome back to a clinical episode. We are continuing a loose theme, I suppose, over the past few weeks of talking about learning disorders. And specifically, we’re talking about dyslexia today. I am so grateful to have a true giant in our field joining me for the conversation today. Dr. Nancy Mather is a professor emerita at the University of Arizona.
She’s published numerous articles and books and conducts workshops on assessment and instruction, both nationally and internationally. Her most recent book on dyslexia is Essentials of Dyslexia, Assessment and Intervention, Second Edition. She’s a co-author of several widely used tests, including the Woodcock Johnson II, Four, and Five, maybe even the R. She’s been involved with the WJ for a long time. And most recently, the tests of dyslexia.
So you have likely seen Nancy or heard her on any number of podcasts, conferences, webinars, presentations. She is pretty prolific in our field.
And like I said, super grateful to have this conversation here today. So Nancy and I touch on a lot of facets of dyslexia and learning disorders. So we do some basics, we talk about
Sort of the historical understanding of dyslexia and what’s involved and what’s happening in our brains. we talk about, of course, methods of assessing dyslexia and what a good dyslexia assessment looks like these days. We talk about Nancy’s journey and progress and you know, the project of creating the tests of dyslexia in an effort to create a truly comprehensive dyslexia assessment measure.
We also talk about intervention and the state of the research these days, with what’s most helpful in treating and supporting individuals with dyslexia and plenty of other things.
As usual, we veer off into a couple of topics that are that are off script and hopefully compelling for those of you out there. So if you have any interest in dyslexia, if you work with kids or even work with adults, there’s a ton of information to take away from this episode.
So please join me for this conversation with Dr. Nancy Mather.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:07)
Nancy, hey, welcome to the podcast.
Nancy Mather (04:10)
Thank you, Jeremy. It’s nice to be here with you.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:13)
Yeah, likewise. Likewise. I you know, a little bit starstruck. You probably hear that a lot, given everything that you’ve done in our field. But such an honor to be here chatting with you and I’m excited about our conversation. So yeah, thanks again. Thanks again for being here.
Nancy Mather (04:28)
Thank you.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:30)
So I’ll start with a question that I always start with, which is of all the things that you could do in in this field, what kind of called you, you know, to this area of learning disorders and dyslexia? Like why why spend your time in this particular area?
Nancy Mather (04:49)
Well, kinda go back to how my career progressed. I got a master’s in behavior disorders.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:56)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (04:56)
And then I got a job in a middle school in a self-contained class. Back then it was called emotional disturbance for children with behavior disorders. and one of the things I realized quickly that one of the biggest problems of these students was they h had trouble reading.
And so they were angry, they felt they didn’t belong in school, they were humiliated. and I thought, how can it be that we get kids to seventh and eighth grade and they can’t read?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:29)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (05:31)
And so it’s just kind of struck me about how important it is for children to get early intervention and learn to read, and also understand.
That they have dyslexia or what else is going on. So it’s not a mystery. And so they can, you know, learn to self advocate, and you know, increase their confidence, et cetera. So it just kind of then got me motivated to think, you know, how how can we help these kids? And is with the masters in behavior disorders, I really knew nothing about teaching reading.
And so then I felt like I really can’t help these kids with the kind of help that they need. So that’s motivated me to learn more about interventions and teaching kids with learning disabilities.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (06:17)
Hmm. Sure.
Nancy Mather (06:18)
So
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (06:18)
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good point. I mean, we work with a lot of kids here in the practice and you know, it’s always a concern, always a question of learning issues. You know, if they’re having behavior issues in school, it’s like, well, how are they doing with the learning? ‘Cause that’s such a big part of it. Yeah.
Nancy Mather (06:31)
Right. Right.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (06:34)
Yeah. Always think about too, you know, that if I had to do something for eight hours a day that felt really hard and that I didn’t feel good at, you know, I’d probably be acting out too, or you know, not having a good time. So it just makes sense.
Nancy Mather (06:51)
Right. Absolutely. And and if nobody really understands you and understands why you’re struggling, but and also understands you’re probably pretty smart you know, in
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:01)
Sure.
Nancy Mather (07:01)
in other ways. And so but if nobody really helped you understand that, you know, s you just think how difficult school would be.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:10)
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And it seems like everybody else gets it, like nobody’s really talking about it. Yeah. You know, recipe for disaster. Yeah. Gotcha.
Nancy Mather (07:17)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
They’re sitting watching, you know, the student next to them. They’re on the first page and the person next to him’s already on page ten. And then they’re thinking,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:28)
Sure.
Nancy Mather (07:28)
Why is it so easy, you know, for
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:30)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (07:31)
that person and not for me? And yeah, so just kind of constantly bringing up your shortcomings in terms of learning and your difficulty.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:40)
Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Exactly. Yes. So you have stuck on this topic for I mean I mean, I think like the entire like basically your entire career. Is that right? I mean, you’ve really centered.
Nancy Mather (07:51)
That’s true.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:52)
Yeah. So maybe I would love to hear how I’m trying to think how to formulate the question, but just like how do you stay engaged? Like what has kept you so interested and invested and you know, able to sort of zero in on on the same area for so long.
Nancy Mather (08:12)
Well, I I think I’ve been fascinated, you know, both in terms of creating assessments that can help identify what is it that’s causing the problem for the student. You know, what are the things and what are their needs in terms of accommodations, et cetera. So really trying to find assessments that would help clarify why.
Why is a student, you know, having trouble and then also trying to develop a deeper understanding of what are the interventions that are needed and how should they be delivered.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (08:48)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (08:50)
And so trying to really understand too making the connection between the assessment and the intervention. And so it’s not just one or the other, but making those connections between you do an evaluation and then what’s important.
Are your recommendations and ideas for helping this student or resolving the problems or making school tolerable, you know, but those recommendations are so important. And so just kind of being
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (09:19)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (09:19)
fascinated by making the connections between assessment and intervention and trying to get students the help that they need.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (09:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. It’s a deep well, I suppose, you know, when you are looking at the full picture and I feel like you,
Nancy Mather (09:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (09:38)
You know, you’re tapping into each of those areas. It can it can keep you going for a long time. So I would love to talk about that. So you have a unique perspective, I think, again, like having having done this for quite a while, right?
And been involved from so many different angles, right? Test development. I mean, if any for anyone who may not know, you know, you’ve played a major role in the Woodcock Johnson several versions and the test of dyslexia. You’ve, you know, co-authored books. I mean, you you have a pretty robust perspective. so could you maybe maybe we start with, you know, a little bit of background.
Could you walk us through at least like from your understanding, your memory, like how have we Understood dyslexia over time, and you know, how’s that shifted? How’s that changed over the years?
Nancy Mather (10:24)
well, truthfully, we’ve really known about, you know, dyslexia from the eighteen hundreds on. you know, early on it was called word blindness, and then there were cases
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (10:35)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (10:35)
of word deafness. and so the you know, terminology has changed across the years. And then there was sort of a period where people didn’t want to say the word dyslexia.
And so they’d say a specific learning disability and basic reading skills or reading fluency or
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (10:54)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (10:55)
a reading disability. But even sometimes in schools, people were told, don’t say that word, you know. Don’t
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (11:02)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (11:02)
Tell the parents, don’t use that word. And you know, I really think now we’re on just sort of the complete opposite trend of it’s important to say dyslexia and talk about dyslexia.
And help understand parents understand and children understand what it is and how how you’re going to help them. So you you just sort of see an evolution in terms of terminology in the field. But you know, really we’ve been aware of, you know, for over a century that there are people who have a very hard time learning to read.
You know, again, I think we could apply that to really any anything that people learn. People there’s group of people who have trouble learning mathematics. you know, there’s group of people who aren’t good in sports. I mean, you know, and so I I think if you take, you know, any people who have no musical talent. Inf you
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (11:58)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (11:58)
know, fact that in the nineteen thirties, that was classified as a disability was difficulty in music because music was so important in school. And so, you know, if you
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:06)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (12:09)
couldn’t keep up, it was classified as, you know, a type of disability, you know. But even even back in the 1930s, you know, they were talking about, and sometimes they were called special disabilities back then, but the children who would be so good in mathematics but struggle to learn to read, or then just the opposite pattern.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:32)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (12:32)
And so really there’s a pretty rich history when it comes to thinking about learning differences and learning disabilities.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:41)
Yeah, yeah, certainly. Certainly. How about the I guess you’d say like the neurobiological component, you know, as far as like the the factors that might be contributing to dyslexia. Like have you how how have you noticed that kind of shift over time, if you if it has shifted, you know, and then kind of bring us to the present in terms of what’s actually happening in the in the brain with dyslexia?
Nancy Mather (13:04)
Well, I’m not sure how much I can really s s speak on that. I mean, you know,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (13:09)
Mm.
Nancy Mather (13:11)
People again talk about the left hemisphere, the brain being much more involved in, you know, the right hemisphere, priato-temporal low places, terms of making the sound symbol connections, what’s called the word form area, kind of back of the ear, trying to get visual images of words. I think there’s just been more studies.
Again, showing that it is a neurological difference, you know, that there’s a difference. I mean, whether
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (13:41)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (13:43)
you know, so there’s just difference in terms of kind of what what is happening in the brain. But, you know, there’s even been some research showing when a person gets a really good intervention, those parts of the brain start lighting up a little bit more, you know, getting more active, you know, and so maybe we really can change brains.
you know, a little bit, but
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (14:08)
Sure. That’s encouraging. We’ll definitely talk about
Nancy Mather (14:10)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (14:12)
intervention. I want to pin that and you know come back to it in a bit. ’cause I you know, we’re always trying to figure out how to intervene and support individuals with dyslexia. Yeah. And even as far as you know, I don’t we don’t have to get in the weeds you know, physiologically or structurally necessarily, but you know, things like dyslexia being challenge with, you know, phonological awareness and, you know, processing speed or rapid naming, you know, and like like these different sort of skills or constructs, I suppose, that kind of contribute to reading.
Can you speak to that a little bit as far as like our current understanding of, you know, which which which you know skills are being in are being enrolled there?
Nancy Mather (14:58)
And I think one thing we see is a shift away from a single deficit model of dyslexia thinking is just attributed to poor phonological processing
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:08)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (15:09)
To a multiple deficit view of dyslexia, where there are multiple linguistic risk factors that can contribute to reading failure, but not one of them can rule in or rule out dyslexia. And so
We have some students that have poor phonological processing that are good readers. And so just because there is something, there’s not necessarily something. But we do know that the more weaknesses you have in these areas like phonological processing, orthographic processing, working memory, processing speed, rapid naming, these linguistic risk factors, the harder.
remediation is and lots of times the more severe the dyslexia, you know, would be. So I I really think now people are embracing a multiple deficit view because for a time there the real focus was just phonological processing. And if you didn’t have a problem there, it’s not dyslexia, you know,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (16:10)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (16:10)
and it’s not that simple. and, you know, so there’s, you know
All those other things going on. And you know, we see like with rapid naming, processing speed, those kinds of time tasks, they affect reading fluency, not
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (16:25)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (16:26)
reading accuracy. And so there’s kind of a different impact depending where the weaknesses are and strengths are. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (16:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Certainly.
Certainly. Yeah. Yeah. to me it feels fairly intuitive when we talk about phonological processing, or even processing speed. Orthographic processing also feels intuitive for the most part. I would love for you to explain rapid automatic naming and how that is implicated in reading and then subsequently dyslexia. Could we go there for a second?
Nancy Mather (17:03)
Sure, sure. So Dr. Martha Denkla was one of the people back in the seventies, with Rita Rudell, who really kind of came up with this rapid automatized naming paradigm
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (17:17)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (17:17)
essentially. And, you know, originally it was sort of a test they would give to people in the hospital to check their recovery from stroke, how fast
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (17:27)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (17:28)
and so they’d show them colors or letters or something Monday and then they check them again Friday to see. And so they were seeing again how quickly, you know, they were recovering.
And then Dr. Denkla thought about, wonder if this would apply, you know, to reading. So they developed RAN measures and since that time Marianne Wolfe has done really a lot in the field too regarding RAN.
But there’s a very strong link between rapid automatized naming and reading fluency. and of course, anytime you have timed measures, they tend to be related. You know, so when something’s being timed, how fast you go, you know, there there’s a relationship there. But lots of times again with our older kids, and also in languages that are more transparent or more regular.
RAN is a stronger predictor than phonological awareness, of dyslexia, you know, because it’s not hard to get the accuracy. So it’s
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (18:30)
Hmm.
Nancy Mather (18:31)
the speed that remains, you know, an issue. And so,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (18:35)
Yeah.
Nancy Mather (18:36)
in many other languages, ran is a stronger predictor than phonological awareness.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (18:42)
that’s fascinating. What can you give me an example or two of languages that are more, what did you call it, regular and predictable? Transparent, yeah.
Nancy Mather (18:49)
Well, yeah, transparent. The the or sh they’re
called shallow orthographies or transparent orthographies, but the connections between the sounds and the symbols aren’t as complex. I mean,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:02)
Mm.
Nancy Mather (19:02)
so languages like Finnish and German, even Spanish,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:07)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (19:08)
there’s it’s just more you know, here’s the letter, here’s the sound. It’s not
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:12)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (19:13)
like English again, where we have so many speech sounds, phonemes and graphemes, letter patterns representing them that English and French have deep orthographies, making it harder to learn to read in these languages because the orthography is more complex.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:29)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (19:30)
You know, so but Rand has been shown to be a better predictor in those transparent or shallow orthographies than phonological awareness.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:41)
Yeah, yeah, that does make sense to me. I’m gonna veer off just for a second, because this is super interesting. But do you know much about rates of dyslexia in other countries? I mean, and how those compare? And is it language dependent, so to speak? I mean, does that influence rate of diagnosis?
Nancy Mather (20:02)
I mean, I I would say it is language dependent and I’d say there’s probably more cases in English and French, you know, than say in Spanish. But you know, it’s interesting because you’ll see prevalence rates anywhere from five to twenty percent, depending who you’re reading, right?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:19)
Yeah.
Nancy Mather (20:21)
most research researchers say five to eight percent in terms of
Prevalence rate, not as high.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:27)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (20:27)
Now, twenty percent of our kids probably have trouble learning to read, but it’s not necessarily dyslexia. Maybe English isn’t their first language, maybe they have ADHD, maybe you know, there’s lots of other reasons why they’re per you know, perhaps struggling. So it’s probably our best estimate is the three to eight percent.
And, you know, n not as high as one out of you’ll hear people say one out of five children have dyslexia and that’s not that’s just not accurate, I don’t you know, I don’t think. But yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:59)
Yeah, that’s helpful. That’s helpful. I didn’t even this is kinda silly. I didn’t even really think about the language complexity having an influence on how we assess dyslexia, but that d that totally makes sense. I mean, you know, phonological awareness gets a lot more complicated when you have more atypical or irregular words. yeah, I mean it makes it harder,
Nancy Mather (21:18)
Right. Right.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (21:19)
certainly.
Nancy Mather (21:20)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (21:22)
Yeah, that’s interesting. so continuing down this path, just a little bit, I would love to get some of the myths around dyslexia before we maybe transition to more assessment related questions. But yeah, I mean, you hear a lot about dyslexia. and I’m curious, yeah, if there are any like big myths that stand out to you that are worth dismissing here.
Nancy Mather (21:48)
Well, I I think maybe one common myth is that smart people can’t have dyslexia.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (21:56)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (21:57)
you know, and that’s just not true. we see twice exceptional students with dyslexia who are brilliant but they’re struggling with reading, right? And so I think sometimes th people think, well, if you’re smart, you know, you can’t you can’t have dyslexia. I think sometimes there’s
just like an oversimplistic statement. you know, such as people with dyslexia see everything backwards. They see all their letters backwards, you know, and so, you know, people say things like that. And that’s just overly simplistic. people with dyslexia do have trouble retaining visual images of letters and words, but they’re actually not seeing things backwards, right? I mean, so
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:39)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (22:40)
I’d say, you know, that’s
Kind of another myth.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:45)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (22:46)
you know, and probably some misregarding kind of comorbidity too. about 40% of people with dyslexia have another disability as well, you know, and so ADHD or dyscalculea, or a developmental language disorder.
And so sort of a myth sometimes that oral language is going to be fine when you have a developmental language disorder and dyslexia. It’s not gonna be fine. So
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:14)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (23:15)
you know, thinking again, well can’t be dyslexia because they’re oral language. They’re having you know, so I think that that can cause some misunderstanding or too when people think, well, can’t be dyslexia because they have a weakness in oral language.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:30)
sure, sure. Yeah, what about ideas like I think this has been pretty well debunked, but just, you know, the idea that dyslexia is a visual disorder versus you know, a disorder of many other things and could be fixed with vision therapy, for example. I mean, we heard that a lot back, you know, ten, fifteen years ago.
Nancy Mather (23:48)
Right, right.
Right, right. And so colored lenses and things yeah, right. you know, the thing is though, dyslexia is partially a visual disorder. and really in you know, where’s captured is orthographic processing and your ability to retain a mental picture of a word.
and like to acquire sight words and things. You know, your person with dyslexia can see a word like let’s say a second grade student, they can see the word it. they’re in second grade and they’re still sounding it out. And you’re thinking, how long does it take for that to become automatized? And how many times have you seen that word and it’s still not a sight word, you know? and
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (24:33)
Yeah.
Nancy Mather (24:33)
so they’re definitely a visual aspect to to dyslexia. And you know, with some of the cases, it’s really a problem in orthographic processing, not phonological processing.
In fact, they overrely on sounds rather than under-rely. I mean, you’ll see a high school student who’s spelling they T-H-A-Y instead S E D and they’re in high school, and you think, how many times have you seen that word and you still don’t you still don’t know how to spell it, you know?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (25:02)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (25:03)
but
They just listen to the sounds.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (25:06)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (25:07)
and so they tend to over rely on phonology because, you know, and if we go back historically, that was sort of w what defined word blindness. If people they seem like they’re blind to printed words, you know. you know, and that was really kind of the
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (25:21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure.
Nancy Mather (25:23)
first thing that was described.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (25:26)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that fits. That fits. What about you know, the idea you hear a lot of a lot of things about sort of the positive aspects of dyslexia, you know, like folks with dyslexia are like more creative, for example, or think outside the box and you know, things like that. Is there any credence to those claims?
Nancy Mather (28:12)
you know, just like any other people, some people with dyslexia are s you know, some aren’t. And so, you know, it’s
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (28:18)
Sure.
Nancy Mather (28:19)
not like, you know I mean, I think there’s some truth to s you know, maybe s people with dyslexia some of them perceive things differently or have a I just watched a YouTube video yesterday of a gal kind of just talking about this, how she was a excellent painter.
And she had dyslexia, and you know, but those were her skills, and she could see colors and patterns and things, but had trouble with reading. I mean, so there are some people with dyslexia who have special talents. but there’s people without dyslexia who have special talents, you know. So yeah, you know, but it is always nice to identify the strengths of the student.
A person who has dyslexia, just ’cause, you know, that helps them in terms of thinking about vocational opportunities, career guidance, et cetera. What are you good at? You know? and it may be something mechanical, you know, or spatial.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:17)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Nancy Mather (29:18)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:19)
Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah, everybody does have strengths and you know talents.
Nancy Mather (29:23)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:23)
But yeah, dyslexic folks aren’t necessarily more likely to be creative than others. Yeah, I hear
Nancy Mather (29:29)
Right. Right.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:30)
you. I hear you. Okay. And again, just a little bit more background before we transition to the assessment.
process, but how are we understanding the relationship between dyslexia and other learning disorders at this point, in terms of like overlap with, you know, math disorders or writing disorders primarily?
Nancy Mather (29:51)
So the three most common learning disorders are, dyslexia, dyscalculia, which is our math, and dysgraphia, which is our writing. there is some overlap in terms of the linguistic risk factors. for example, working memory can affect dyscalculia and dyslexia, right?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:12)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (30:13)
You know, and so you know there’s overlap in terms of linguistic risk factors. Now you know under IDEA, you know, they’ve also got oral languages type of learning disability. I really don’t feel like it belongs there.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:30)
Mm.
Nancy Mather (30:30)
Just because it really fits better under oral language, you know, sort of speech-language area. it’s a language disorder.
And so I really like to think learning disabilities is being academic. you know, if it’s a problem in oral language, you know, the person we want them to see is the speech language therapist, right? and so it’s it makes makes some sort of confusing overlap between the fields a little bit and just in terms of schools, like who’s gonna see the child and both or I don’t know. I just think it’s clearer.
But yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (31:07)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I know you’ve talked about some questions or concerns maybe around the IDEA classifications. Is that what you are r referring to with that? Or there do you have other thoughts around IDEA and how we might do things differently?
Nancy Mather (31:27)
Well, no, I I just think the main thing is having you know oral language as a learning disability causes confusion. That’s all.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (31:36)
Yeah.
Nancy Mather (31:37)
clearly there’s kids with, you know, developmental language disorders. But that’s a clearer category than a learning disability. you know, it’s a language disorder, but you know.
And I again I think it just causes this unnecessary overlap and confusion, you know, in schools in terms of well, is that the special ed teacher or the speech language therapist or both of them or you know, who who who tests this student, who who helps this student? you know.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:09)
Sure. Yeah, that’s
Nancy Mather (32:10)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:11)
a I mean, that’s a great question. It’s a great question. What just for folks who might be wondering, I mean, there is some overlap, right? I mean, there’s clearly overlap between language and reading. so
Nancy Mather (32:20)
Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:21)
yeah, I mean, how do you think of that separately in your mind? Like how do we distinguish those two enough that, you know, it would lead to kind of like a different classification or intervention between one or the other?
Nancy Mather (32:34)
Well, I I mean lots of times you compare tests that have similar kinds of content, but one is administered orally and one, you know, you read, right? So com
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:46)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (32:47)
comparing listening comprehension test to a reading comprehension test. Well, if
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:52)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (32:53)
you just have dyslexia, you’re gonna do better on the listening comprehension test, right? if
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:58)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Nancy Mather (33:00)
you have developmental language disorder and dyslexia, they’re both going to be low, you know. right. So most lots of tests have those nice direct comparisons between, you know, an oral vocabulary test and a reading vocabulary test.
And so you can kind of see those differences in terms of, you know, there’s not a problem in oral language. the problem’s
With reading and spelling, right?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (33:27)
Yeah, yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah. I appreciate that. And I couldn’t I can’t leave this this area without talking about diagnosis, I think, of dyslexia. So we have gone through a few different approaches to that. You know, there’s the discrepancy model, there’s RTI, there’s patterns of strengths and weaknesses, maybe others that I’m not thinking of.
Where w how are you thinking about diagnosis at this point in terms of how we actually identify learning disorders or dyslexia specifically?
Nancy Mather (34:03)
you know, I mean, if you look historically or you think about learning disabilities, a pattern of strengths and weaknesses approach, is the best way to identify learning disabilities because that’s really what you’re seeing. They’re really good at some things and they’re really struggling with other things. And and that pattern is what suggests to you that it’s a learning disabilities. you know some of our
Kids with dyslexia do have an ability achievement discrepancy, you know, particularly when they’ve had good oral language. And you know, so there’s a a discrepancy there sometimes. But, you know, really a PSW approach is the most relevant in terms of learning disability, you know, identification, looking at that that pattern and thinking, well, does this profile sort of make sense in terms of
child who’s got incredible math skills and really struggling with reading. you know, so th that’s
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:03)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (35:04)
the best fit just in terms of, you know, diagnosis. But as as you know, diagnosis is more complex than just tests. You know, you also have to have information. A big one with dyslexia is family history. Family history is a big risk factor for dyslexia.
So you always want to know, did someone in the family have trouble learning to read? And invariably they say, yeah, my dad or me or you know, my brother, or you know, he still has I mean, to read. So family history is a key risk indicator. you know, also seeing what the parents say, what the teachers say, what the person says themselves, and so gathering a lot of qualitative information too.
you know, really helps with decision making rather than just test scores, you know.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:55)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. All those factors are gonna be super important and history and and everything. Yeah. So can can I throw two scenarios at you and see what you think from a diagnostic perspective. these are scenarios that come up a lot. So one of them is, you know, the kiddo who has really high intelligence, let’s say. So maybe they’re, you know, whatever full scale IQ is one.
118, 123, something like that. And then their reading scores, let’s just say they have consistently lower reading scores, but they’re like 101, 102. They’re in the average range. that’s scenario one. Like in that case, are you thinking, hey, this is a kid with dyslexia? They’re just really bright, because that’s a relative weakness. Or are you thinking, well no, reading’s average, so I think we’re good here. Like, how do you how would you think about a case like that?
Nancy Mather (36:49)
Well, okay, so the thing is and what would happen in the school probably, people would say reading’s average, so there’s no big deal here. It doesn’t matter. But
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:55)
Yeah, yeah.
Nancy Mather (36:57)
you know, one of the things you really have to think about is what kind of intervention has this student had?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (37:03)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (37:04)
You know, I saw a fifth-grade girl; her reading scores are average now, but she’s had three years of daily one-to-one instruction for an hour, five days a week with the Wilson Reading System.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (37:17)
gosh.
Nancy Mather (37:17)
Her readings, you know, I mean, it’s
phenomenal. It just shows you what intervention can do. Does she have dyslexia?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (37:22)
huh, huh.
Nancy Mather (37:23)
Of course she does. But she got great help. You know, and so, just an average reading score can’t rule out dyslexia. What kind of help have they gotten? Well, none. I mean, or or a ton or and they go to summer school, they have a tutor that comes after school every night, you know, and so you just really have to sort of dig deeper into what kind of help have they had in the past, because good intervention will lead to average reading scores. It’s just a
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (37:54)
Absolutely.
Nancy Mather (37:55)
lot of hard work. It’s a lot of hard work to get there, but they can.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:00)
Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. that I like the way you frame that. Okay. Okay. So that’s
Nancy Mather (38:05)
Okay.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:05)
scenario one. This comes up a lot. Scenario two, which also comes up a lot, is a kiddo almost on the other end of the spectrum where, you know, maybe their IQ is falling more around, let’s call it like seventy-nine or eighty-two, and reading scores are are similar, let’s say, like seventy-seven, seventy-eight, you know, somewhere around there, eighty.
How do you think about those kiddos? Like is that also dyslexia? ‘Cause it’s like a relative, you know, weakness relative to the to their peers, or commensurate with intelligence and so not so much.
Nancy Mather (38:42)
Well, I I mean y you know, usually in that case it’s more a slow learner kind of, you know, category of, you know, those things
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:48)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (38:50)
are kind of matching. you know, but again you you’d wanna know is there a language disorder too? you know,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:57)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (38:58)
you’d have to know a little bit more, in terms of the reasons for the lower scores or if there are reasons,
So you need a little bit more background. But
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:08)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (39:09)
you know, and that that’s kind of been historically one of the problems too, is you know, we’ve got these kids that are just kind of low. They’re low on IQ scores, they’re low in reading scores, just low, right?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:22)
Yeah.
Nancy Mather (39:23)
But it’s is it a disability? You know, probably not. We’ve got some kids that are just high. They’re high. They’re not super high, but they’re high on everything, right?
Are they gifted? No, probably not. But I mean it’s just like, but sometimes schools don’t do a good job of accommodating those kids, you know, because they don’t learn as quickly as other kids do.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:44)
Yeah.
Nancy Mather (39:45)
you know, and you’d have to ask questions too, like, is English their first language?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:49)
sure.
Nancy Mather (39:50)
their parents speak English to them at home? I mean, you know, so
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:53)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (39:53)
you sort of sort of have to tease out, you know, other kinds of things. And
You know, one one thing we do see over time is with people with dyslexia, lots of times intelligence test scores decline as they go through school, because th they don’t spend time reading third grade on the main way we acquire knowledge and vocabulary is reading. And so if you don’t spend any time reading, you know, your vocabulary doesn’t grow at the pace of somebody who’s a avid reader, you know, and so it’s not that you’re left
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:30)
Such a great point.
Nancy Mather (40:30)
smart, it’s just that you don’t spend time reading and you’re not exposed to the thousands of words you see as a reader.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:40)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m glad that you highlighted that. Yeah. I feel like that’s easy to to forget, but those years stack up, you know, years without reading make a difference.
Nancy Mather (40:51)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:52)
I know. I know. So okay, I’ve been teasing this forever. Let’s actually pivot to the assessment process. I think people are super interested in that. So maybe just like on a broad level, what would you say makes up a good quote unquote dyslexia assessment?
Nancy Mather (41:07)
Well, I mean that was that that was part of the reason we created the test of dyslexia was you know, it was probably about twelve years ago. I was doing an evaluation for dyslexia and I was like, Why do I have to go to four different tests to do this? I mean, you know, why why? You know, why isn’t it why
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (41:24)
Yeah. Relatable, yeah.
Nancy Mather (41:27)
isn’t it in one place? And so we really tried to put everything in that test you would need.
to do a good dyslexia evaluation. So there’s 23 tests in there. And then we also conurned it with rating scales. So you get parent, teacher, self, so you get that qualitative information is well too. But you know, and again we s sort of thought about what needs to be in a dyslexia assessment. Clearly, reading accuracy, decoding, reading speed, reading rate. you want to look at their spelling.
You know, and so with dyslexia, typically it’s a problem in word reading accuracy rate and spelling, okay? That then impacts written expression and reading comprehension.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:12)
Yes.
Nancy Mather (42:13)
but those are secondary consequences of the problem, you know, with the decoding and encoding skills, you know, so and and then
Linguistic risk factors. so you know, we talked about processing speed and RAN and working memory and phonological processing, so wanting to look at different, you know, linguistic risk factors. we thought it was also important to have measures of vocabulary and reasoning just to kind of rule out, you know, or get some insight into
level of intelligence, is oral language a contributing factor? is there a discrepancy between oral vocabulary you know, and reading? And so sometimes you know, again, adding in those, you know, kinds of more cognitive kinds of measures is important. You know, I think there would be times too
You want to see how’s their math, you know?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (43:15)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (43:16)
and so, you know, again, is this bigger than reading, just just reading, but you know, I mean, so you know, it just kind of depends a little bit on the age of the student, you know, where they’re having trouble. you know, so it’s interesting. I saw I saw a couple just, you know, two weeks ago, but
You know, I saw a third grade boy and he’s been homeschooled since COVID, twenty twenty. So he’s been homeschooled all this time. So he clearly has dyslexia, but and he’s reading like at a primer level. but what what was kind of interesting, he doesn’t know how low his reading skills are because he’s not in school.
So he’s
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (44:02)
Sure.
Nancy Mather (44:03)
not seeing how easily other kids read, how fast they read, the big books they’re reading. He’s not seeing any of that. So he perceives, you know, one of the w rating scale question was that he answered, and he was answered, I’m good at reading words, you know. And I thought that’s sort of fascinating in a way that just because he’s not being exposed, you know, to peers, you know, who are reading well.
He he doesn’t understand how far behind he is. I mean, he’s so far behind, but he just
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (44:29)
Yeah, he has no comparison, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (44:35)
doesn’t have a clue, you know. So I thought that was that’s pretty interesting. But there’s a strong family history, you know, of dyslexia, both his brother and his dad, and you know, it’s kind of a no-brainer, but it was kinda interesting. I thought, you know, n not being in school, school is where you really, you know, see how
Barbia you listen to other kids read and you’re like, Whoa. Whoa, you know. Yeah. So
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:03)
Yeah, yeah. We struggle with homeschool kids pretty frequently. Yeah, in terms
Nancy Mather (45:08)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:08)
of well, it just I mean I mean, it throws a wrench in the assessment process. You know, it’s just hard to know like what
Nancy Mather (45:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:14)
kind of curriculum are they using, what’s the consistency of instruction, what how
Nancy Mather (45:19)
Exactly.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:19)
are they measuring o along the way? I mean, it’s really tough.
Nancy Mather (45:24)
No, I know. It does add a whole level of, you know, yeah, what what’s being done and how often is it being done. And yeah, it adds in a level of complexity, just as English is not your first language adds a level, you know, of complexity, you know, as well when you know, dealing with couple languages or so yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:46)
Sure, sure.
So so yeah, so y’all developed this, you know, the test of dyslexia. and that came out when? It was a couple of years ago, 2024 or something like that. Yeah,
Nancy Mather (45:56)
Uh-huh. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:58)
yeah. That’s great. I love just as a general approach, like solving your own problem, you know, like why am I going to four different tests? And you’re like, I’ll just make the test. Like, you know.
Nancy Mather (46:07)
Exactly.
I know. It was yeah, it was kinda funny ’cause it was just like w I you know, why, why, why am I you know, a little bit from here, a little bit from here, a little bit from here, and they all have different norms and you know, d they describe their scores differently and it’s like, anyway, so
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. So gosh, I have a couple questions related to that. one though, just an observation. I think it it’s really cool that it’s co-normed with rating scales. That feels different than
Nancy Mather (46:31)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:32)
any other measure that I know of to capture, you
know, kind of the the the subjective experience with the test results. That’s really cool. where do you see the tests of dyslexia kind of slotting in to an eval? Like is this replacing
you know, if you can comment on this, like does this replace subtests on like a bigger academic battery like the Wyatt or the W J? Or is it an adjunct? Like how how do you think of, you know, its role in a battery?
Nancy Mather (47:03)
Well, you know, really our intent was t to make it everything you need, truthfully. That was our intent, you know.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (47:09)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (47:11)
know, but again, mm and as we know in evaluations, sometimes there’s other questions, you know, you wanna look into written language more, you know. you wanna look into math more, you know, you know, and so of course you need, you know, other tests to do that. But you know, so
lot depends on what the referral question is. But if a referral question is, does my child have dyslexia? The parent wants to know. You
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (47:38)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (47:38)
know, you know you’re probably good with that, with the rating scale information, with the family history, with being able to answer that question.
You know, but if the if it’s a general referral question, you know, my child is struggling, you know, with reading, writing, and math and having a terrible time in school, you need a much broader, you know, you need Woodcock Johnson and other, you know, majors as well. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:05)
Right, right. Yeah, that makes sense. Yes, yes. gosh, I am debating whether to ask about the the Woodcock Johnson. There’s so much there. I don’t know if I wanna go into that territory, you know. We can stick with stick with dyslexia specifically. Well, okay, okay. Maybe just like
Nancy Mather (48:19)
No, go ahead. Go ahead.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:23)
one or two questions around that. So I mean you were
Nancy Mather (48:25)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:25)
involved in the in the WJ five, right? Like you were Yeah.
Nancy Mather (48:28)
Right. That was yes,
and WJ well, actually WJR three four or five. So so
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:35)
Yeah.
Nancy Mather (48:36)
back in the eighties I did my dissertation on the Whiskar and the WJ and I had fifty gifted kids and fifty kids with learning disabilities and so had a lot of problems with the data and that’s how I got to know Dr. Woodcock. So
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:51)
yeah.
Nancy Mather (48:52)
I you know I I’ll just just tell you quickly because it was kinda interesting. So the original WJ, they had these suppressor variables in the oral language and the reasoning, trying to take oral language out of reasoning and trying to take
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:06)
Ha ha ha.
Nancy Mather (49:07)
reasoning and my LD kids were high in reasoning. And I’m like, no, how do I ex how do I explain this? anyway,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:11)
wait a second. huh.
Nancy Mather (49:15)
so that’s it, because I had the extremes. And so anyway, I it was like, I have no way of explaining
Anyway, so then
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:22)
I it’s
Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s just a testament to how difficult test development is. I feel like there and I I don’t even know. I you know, I don’t even know. But just seeing from the outside,
Nancy Mather (49:33)
Okay.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:33)
there are just so many layers and nuances. I have a lot of respect for
Nancy Mather (49:36)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:36)
y’all who are really in the trenches with developing these measures. But yeah, I mean I’ve a I’ve had a long relationship with the WJ. You know, I started grad school in two thousand two.
And I think that was the we were like we used the WJ three and then I think there was a normative update somewhere around there.
Nancy Mather (49:54)
Yeah,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:55)
and so kind of switched to that. But I guess yeah, I’ll keep the questions limited with that. because I do want I want to talk about intervention for dyslexia as well. But I feel like you know the WJ five was a big leap as far as the digital administration and
you know, development and I don’t know. I’m just interested in your like perspective and experience with that. Like, what do you think about this move to digital test administration? Let’s let’s start there.
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (50:21)
to turn
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:21)
Mm.
Nancy Mather (50:21)
easel page. I don’t know. It it’s it’s a
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:24)
Yeah.
Nancy Mather (50:25)
So
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:25)
Mm.
Nancy Mather (50:25)
there
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:25)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (50:26)
But
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:26)
Okay.
Sure, sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I’m I’m with you. I mean I like taking notes on paper and I do miss
Nancy Mather (50:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:33)
that. We do a lot of iPad administration. I do miss that. I feel
Nancy Mather (50:36)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:37)
like that hasn’t translated super well. but on the other hand, I mean I’m a it is.
Nancy Mather (50:40)
Yeah, it’s hard to you
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:42)
for sure. For sure. Yeah.
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. On the I mean, on the other hand though, I am a big fan of anything that lightens the sort of cognitive load that we’re dealing
Nancy Mather (50:50)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:51)
with during testing, you know, and lets us focus on the kid or, you know, thinking more deeply about the data or whatever it may be, you know, instead of tracking basals and ceilings and whatnot. But I don’t know, it’s a
Nancy Mather (51:01)
Well a and
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:02)
it’s a double edged sword.
Nancy Mather (51:03)
Johnson, you yeah that yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s just nice
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:03)
Well, my gosh, my gosh, yes, yes.
Nancy Mather (51:07)
you need. So that’s a big
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:08)
Uh-huh. A hundred percent.
I know. I know. I’m with I worked for a neuropsychologist in grad school for a few years and you know, there are a few of us in our grad program who were doing that practicum experience. And yeah, we would have to carry these I mean, it was like three of those big suitcase cases, you know, and drop off and wheel around
Nancy Mather (51:28)
I know.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:29)
with other people, you know, it’s it’s a lot. It was a lot.
Nancy Mather (51:31)
Yeah, yeah, it’s cra it
was crazy crazy.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:35)
Yes, yes.
Let me see. One more I’ll I can ask one more question about the WJ and then maybe we start to close with intervention
for dyslexia. But you tell me was the WJ five the first one to sort of map on or reflect like the more contemporary CHC theory, or did that happen in previous versions as well?
Okay.
Gotcha, gotcha. Okay,
Nancy Mather (51:58)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:58)
that’s fair. That’s fair. So you’re just carrying those changes, I guess, or updates, you know, forward to the WJ five, which is great.
Nancy Mather (52:05)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:06)
Okay. So maybe we pivot back over to intervention for dyslexia here. So gosh. Maybe again we start broad, and then we can get a little more detailed depending on, you know, the the specific.
types or versions, you know, and weaknesses and whatnot. But at least at this point in time, what are we finding, you know, broadly that’s you know successful, you know, for intervening and supporting dyslexia for kiddos.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (52:39)
y
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:39)
Right.
Nancy Mather (52:40)
yeah, so
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:42)
It is challenging. That’s a that’s a big challenge we run into is access. You know, there are few private practitioners, to you know, tutors or reading specialists or whomever who who can implement these interventions, but it’s hard at schools sometimes and hard to know if they’re being implemented to fidelity, even if they are research supported interventions.
Nancy Mather (53:04)
Maybe they
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:04)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (53:05)
school.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:05)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (53:05)
kids with
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:05)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, yes. It’s a real push pull with that.
Nancy Mather (53:09)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:09)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean one thing that you mentioned is or alluded to is sort of different intervention for different weaknesses, which, you know, intuitively makes sense. walk us through I mean, how how could we kind of look at test results and take, you know, scores from different different areas and kind of map that onto personal intervention? How how do you think about that?
And like types of intervention that would be most appropriate, you know, given the different, you know, different weaknesses that we might see.
Nancy Mather (53:38)
And so
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:38)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (53:39)
And so
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Mather (53:40)
But you
You know, and
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:41)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (53:41)
you know. So
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
I I’m glad you brought that up. Yeah. Do we I mean, do we ever get to the point where the window of intervention closes and you just move to accommodation? Or I mean or is intervention gonna be helpful no matter the age?
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (53:58)
or
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:57)
Mm.
Nancy Mather (53:58)
years
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:58)
Goodness.
Yeah.
certainly, certainly. Gosh, that’s
Nancy Mather (54:00)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:01)
a yeah, that’s a wild story. I know there are lot of folks out there. Yeah. steering back quickly to the intervention question, as far at least as far as phonological awareness, are we still thinking, you know, sort of Orton Gellingham approaches are best? Are there other approaches that kind of burst on the scene that we should be considering? Where are we at with that?
Nancy Mather (54:22)
so d it
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (54:23)
you know, it’s
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:23)
Right.
Certainly, certainly. Do you know put you on the spot and if not that’s okay, but do you know off the top of your head any of the the computer pr intervention programs that are looking pretty good at this point?
Uh-huh.
Nancy Mather (54:35)
so,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:35)
Okay.
Nancy Mather (54:36)
there’s just
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:36)
Okay.
Nancy Mather (54:37)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:36)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
This is great. This is great. Thank you. Thank you. So maybe closing question. I’m curious what you foresee in the future of dyslexia, you know, research, assessment, intervention. What are you excited about? Anything on the horizon to be looking out for?
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (54:58)
So yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:58)
Absolutely. Yeah, it’s always a bottleneck.
Yes. Great.
Nancy Mather (55:02)
Yeah,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:02)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Mather (55:03)
It’s just
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:03)
Ha ha ha ha.
Nancy Mather (55:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:04)
That’s great perspective. Gosh. Yeah.
Give me some of that, Andy. That’s yeah, you’ve got
Nancy Mather (55:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:10)
A wisdom beyond your years. That’s really good. Nice.
Nice. Well, that’s a good note to close on, I think. Yeah. Thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing all this. You know, you are so influential in our field and like I said, I’m just so grateful to get some of your time to to chat through a topic that’s super important for a lot of kids and parents and educators and practitioners. So
Thank you so much.
Nancy Mather (55:33)
Yeah, Thank you, Jeremy.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:32)
Yeah, absolutely. Let’s do it. All right. Bye bye.
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