Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:18)
Hey everyone, welcome back to the testing psychologist. I’ve got a business episode for you today answering a question that comes up so many times in my consulting and Facebook group and membership community, and that is should I start a group practice? So my guest today, Whitney Owens, is well suited to answer this question. Whitney knows what it’s like to build something meaningful from the ground up. She’s licensed.
Professional counselor, faith-driven entrepreneur, and founder of Wise Practice Consulting, where she’s turned her own experience running a thriving 15 plus clinician private pay group practice in Savannah, Georgia into a roadmap for practice owners who want to grow without sacrificing their faith, their income, or their life. Whitney has, I think, a rare ability to meet practice owners exactly where they are and help them build practices that are not only profitable, but designed around the life they actually want to live.
Through Wise Practice Consulting, she brings real-world strategy and faith-based grounding to practice owners who are done settling for burnout and ready to build something that works for their clients and their bottom line and for their calling. Whitney also has a podcast, which you will hear. I will be recording on her podcast, I think, tomorrow. So you can go check that out in a couple months as well. But she’s also the host of the Wise Practice Podcast and creator of the annual Wise Practice Summit.
Which is a gathering of faith-based practice owners who believe you shouldn’t have to choose between a thriving business and a life well lived. I’ve been to the summit a couple of times as well as a speaker, and it’s a really good time. And it’s always in the South, which I appreciate. She picks these really nice hotels in the South, in Nashville and Charlotte, and so forth, and worth checking out. So you can find all those links in the show notes if you want to check out what Whitney is up to.
But today, like I said, we are talking about how to start a group practice, should I start a group practice, mistakes people make when they go to start group practices, and everything kind of under that umbrella. So I like this episode one, just because Whitney is super down-to-earth, very grounded, very transparent and genuine, but also because we actually get into the weeds and some of the nuts and bolts of starting a group practice. So, you know, we talk about
what it really means to increase your income in group practice, whether that’s a possibility or not a possibility. we talk about the mindset that is helpful when you’re starting a group practice. We talk about referral streams that need to be in place before you start a group practice, and many other things. I think there is a lot to take away from this episode. And if you are out there thinking about hiring or growing even or scaling your practice.
This is a good one for you. So let’s go ahead and get to my conversation with Whitney Owens.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:13)
Winnie Hey, welcome back to the podcast.
Whitney Owens (04:16)
I’m so glad to be with you, Jeremy.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:18)
Yeah, yeah, good to see you again. It’s been a little while. I’m trying to think what we talked about last time. And of course, I can’t remember. Was it private pay? ⁓
Whitney Owens (04:26)
We did, yes, ’cause I actually really enjoyed that interview, and I remember being like, that might have been one of the best ones I’ve given in a long time.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:34)
Nice. I’m glad to hear that. Glad to hear that. Hopefully we can duplicate and build on that success here today. Make it even better. So today we’re talking about group practice. When to start a group practice and maybe on the flip side, when not to start a group practice. I think it’s all part of the same discussion. And this is a question that pops up a lot in my audience and I think many other folks’ audience out there.
Whitney Owens (04:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:01)
So first question, always start with, you you could talk about a lot of things. You’re very accomplished. You’ve done many cool things over your career, but why focus on this?
Whitney Owens (05:12)
well, thank you for saying that. I love having a group practice. And looking back, I was so anxious. I didn’t know what I was doing, you know. And I I think a lot of people would say they were kind of pushed into it. Just kind of how you’re almost pushed into starting a private practice. ⁓ my caseload was overwhelming and I didn’t know what to do with all the people calling. And then I just started hiring. And now that I look
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:20)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (05:38)
on that, I’m so grateful for that decision. Not only because it allows me to eat, you know, and have mortgage paid for and my kids can go to Disney sometimes, but it’s allowed me to develop a team that I genuinely love.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:44)
Ha ha ha ha.
Yeah, yeah. That’s the best part about it, at least for me, is the team.
Whitney Owens (06:00)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You can extend your reach into your community. In a community that we know all needs more mental health services, I can find people that I like, bring them onto the team, train them in a way that I feel like is good for people, and then continue to do that good work. And I just love when clients come back, you know, and they say, I went to Water’s Edge or here’s, you know, you see on social media, Water’s Edge, this. And then I hear stories of people working with the therapist in my practice that I don’t know anything about.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (06:05)
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (06:30)
You’re just like, wow, that’s so humbling the work that they get to do. And you’re just like, wow, I got to create that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (06:32)
Hmm
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s super powerful. I think a lot of group practice owners hopefully have those moments here and there. You hear those stories, or you read something in your Google reviews or something. And it was like something happening behind the scenes. You had no idea, of course, what all interactions your staff are having. But it does hit. mean, it hits in a really good way, but in a heavy way, too. It’s like, oh, man, that’s pretty amazing.
There’s a lot that goes into this, especially now. think having this conversation now is important because you’re probably in a lot of the same Facebook groups that I’m in. And there’s a lot of discussion from group practice owners who are trying to get out and don’t love it and are burned out and really wrestling with whether this is the right choice. So I think this is a timely conversation.
Yeah, yeah. where do you start to think through? mean, how do we start to think through, you know, is group practice right for me? Where do you start with folks?
Whitney Owens (07:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think a big question you have to ask yourself is do you want to manage a business or not? Now, when we’re in private practice, there’s like a you have to manage a business. You know, there’s no getting out of that. But if you love the clinical work, managing a group practice may not be where you’re supposed to be. Now, that doesn’t mean you can’t love it all, but
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:42)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (07:57)
I see a lot of group practice owners who will say, I’m gonna go get this continuing education or I’m gonna get this certification or do this. And and that’s great. But then why did you start a group practice? Because the more you grow, you have to work less clinically to run your business. And if you continue to see too many clients, you will burn out, be overwhelmed, and honestly, your business won’t like you because it it won’t be fed and it won’t grow. And so you’ve got to know that, hey.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (08:12)
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (08:24)
I actually also really love investing in therapists. I really love the business side. I love marketing. I love going in the community and speaking at engagements. Like all those types of things. You have to enjoy those too, or grow or having a group practice is going be so daunting. I think another thing you got to really know, and people are always amazed when I say this. A lot of people do it for money. I need to make more money, which hey, we all want to make more money. You have got to get to at least five.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (08:49)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Whitney Owens (08:54)
Full-time consistent therapist to see a significant change in your income. So a lot of people will hire two or three part-time people and then they’re frustrated because they’re not making enough money. They’re exhausted. I was better when I was a solo practice owner. It is not worth starting a group practice. You’re making less money than you did. And you are going to be if you don’t get to five full-time people. Not maybe not going to be, but you won’t see a significant difference to get to five full-time. And you just shook your head, so you know what I’m talking.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (09:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, do. I my rule of thumb that I tell people is you have to essentially 7x your solo income with clinicians before you start to see the benefit, so to speak, of a group practice. But seven and five, think, is pretty similar because one clinician, it’s like a one-to-one, essentially. let me walk me through your math. You were pretty confident you have to hire five full-time people. What is driving that reasoning?
Whitney Owens (09:47)
I wish I could tell you there was this perfect math equation because that would make you sound like a great consultant. But no, it’s really just been from years of watching. Years of watching practice owners. I see some that even get to five or eight therapists, but they’re part-time. And they’re so then I see them and I’m like, yeah, because they’re not seeing enough clients.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (09:55)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that makes sense. I I’m going to do something really dangerous and try to do some math on the fly here and see if we can make this work. I think about, if you’re running a pretty good group practice, you should have a profit margin of let’s just call it 20 % for having a nice round number. And if you have five clinicians with a 20 % profit margin, theoretically, you’re making 100 % of like
a full-time clinician income. Does that make sense? Like five times 20, 100%. And that equals like a clinician’s income. So that kind of replaces your income as the practice owner. I don’t know if that actually makes sense, but when I thought about it and started to talk about it, did. I don’t know. Maybe that’s one way to think of it.
Whitney Owens (10:53)
doing my math on my calculator right now, I was like, well if I had it that because we charge a hundred dollars for our associates, a hundred dollars an hour for therapy. And if they were to if we were to bring the twenty percent, which I think was a very good profit margin. And then if you were to take what they bring in, multiply that by the twenty, that’s two thousand dollars per full time person. So that would give you eight thousand yeah. Did I say it right? Eight to ten thousand? Yeah. Just depends on what your profit margin is, I guess. But and you could most easily
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (11:16)
Yes. Yeah.
Totally.
Whitney Owens (11:23)
off of that, right? Well I guess it depends on where you live, but
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (11:25)
Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah.
But point being, people get into running a group practice thinking, I want some. So there’s two components for me. I want passive income. So one, it’s not passive, first of all. And we can talk about that. But two, you don’t actually really see that increase in income, like you said, until you’ve hired, I think, least five full-time folks. That totally makes sense to me. Yeah.
Whitney Owens (11:38)
Okay.
Totally, totally. Now something that I see, I’m just gonna go here. something I see group practice owners when they start out do is doing what someone down the street does. And these people we don’t we did not go to school and learn how to run a business. Right. And let me tell you, the person down the street that’s running a group practice that looks successful, first of all, it actually may not be. And second of all, they didn’t learn.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (11:53)
Yeah, I am.
Awesome.
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (12:12)
business unless they tell you that they did or they got a lot of business consulting. And so people just start hiring. They don’t really know what they’re doing and they make so many mistakes business wise. And then they regret it later. And so, you know, a lot of times they come to me for consulting and they’re five, 10 therapists down the road, my gosh, they’re still not making more than they did solo. They’ve made all these mistakes. So I always preach like if you’re gonna start a group practice, do not just go with the whim. Like
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:24)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (12:42)
Get some consulting, meet with someone that knows what they’re doing, get some training so that you like can prevent those mistakes because having to go back and change things later, you lose employees, you’ve lost time, you’ve lost clients. Like it’s such a disaster.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah. You’re having to unwind a lot at that point and it can be pretty tough. It can be really tough. What are some of those mistakes that you’ve seen people make when they start out?
Whitney Owens (13:05)
Mm-hmm. The biggest one is pay. They pay their therapist too much. They think I have to and they have all these good intentions. Well, I’m gonna pay therapists well so that they can feel good and and that’s all good and dandy, but it’s not worth it if you’re struggling. Like the whole put your ma mask on before someone else, like as a business owner, if you’re not taking care of yourself, your team’s gonna feel it. And you’ve got to be able to make enough money that you can go home and not be stressed at night, you know.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (13:08)
Hmm.
Of
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (13:34)
I remember my second therapist when she started making more than me, I was like, What just happened here? Right. I changed my model after that. Yeah, so so people, so someone listening right now is like, Well, Whitney, tell me what I pay, right? What’s the ro what’s the amount? So here’s your rule. Ten ninety nine’s not more than sixty percent, period. Like, and I I’m telling you, people push on this with me. I say, go to your accountant, tell them to run the numbers, and then they come back and they’re embarrassed to find out that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (13:40)
Mmm.
Whitney Owens (14:02)
Literally they are working harder and paying their people. Like they’re basically working for their people so that they can make money. And when they figure that out, they’re so embarrassed. And I’m like, yeah. And so then they have to go change it and that doesn’t go well. So 60%. But I actually don’t like the contractor model anyway, which we can go into that if you want. But for a W-2-based practice, you do not want to give more than 45%.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (14:18)
Yes.
Me neither.
Whitney Owens (14:28)
That is like right at your breaking point. And that needs to include everything, like health insurance, retirement, all that. So what I usually tell people when they’re first starting, like, yeah, you’re not gonna have all that yet. Pay them 40% of what comes in. And then after that, you can add all the benefits later. But you don’t wanna go to somebody and change their pay once they’ve started.
And for my associates, the ones that are getting supervision, which is very expensive, I pay them more like 35. You know, thirty to thirty-five. Because supervision’s expensive and it’s a liability and all the time and energy your team has to put into it.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:00)
Mm-hmm. Sure. So I’m guessing that people are listening and wondering where that 45 % number came from. for employees, for W2 employees, how did you arrive at 45 %? That’s lower than I’ve heard from different folks over the years. Yeah. So yeah, what’s your rationale for the 45 %?
Whitney Owens (15:13)
I know of different ways.
I some of it’s just running my own numbers and watching it happen. And I can tell you I have been in meetings where people will message me when I say that and say, I’m so glad I did consulting with you and you told me that because my friend down the street is paying 50%. I knew another practice owner who paid 50% and swore by it, but he also had to see 20 clients a week and had like nine therapists at his practice. And I’m like, well yeah you have to see 20 clients a week because
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:23)
No.
Hmm?
Okay.
Whitney Owens (15:45)
You’ve got to bring in more income to be able to sustain the practice. So it’s like you said earlier, there has to be this level of practice growth while you decrease your caseload. And if you’re paying them too much, which you don’t notice that too much at the beginning, but as you start growing, like that’s a struggle. so that’s part of it. I’ve also had seen, I actually know another practice owner who paid 50% and ended up having to close.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (16:11)
So I just, and I’m a conservative person. Maybe you could do 50. I don’t know. I’m not even really willing to go that far because if the business suffers and closes, everyone loses their job. All the clients don’t get help. I I just talked to a practice center yesterday. She told me about the second group practice she knows that just closed. 12 plus therapists. And like, what’s making that happen? Surely they’re not making enough money. It’s probably a big part of it.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (16:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I think you’re right. I think you’re right. Yeah, a lot of the stress and burnout and difficulty that I’m seeing with a lot of group practice owners in consulting, but also in these Facebook groups, is, I mean, a lot of it’s driven by money and having to work too hard, so to speak. So I think you’re right, Owen. So I’m guessing, OK, I’m going to keep pushing on this because these are the things that people have questions about. So you said 45 % all in. that’s including benefits, payroll taxes.
Whitney Owens (16:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (17:06)
you know, everything. Yeah. So that means somebody is probably actually getting paid, what, 38 % of or give or 35 to 38 % of like the hourly collections.
Whitney Owens (17:21)
Yeah, so if we were gonna go with easy numbers here, if if and I’m a private pay practice, so it makes that part a little easier, but I still work with insurance based and we like calculate kind of what that would look like. We work on that. But so if we’re charging $100 a client, that means the therapist is getting paid forty dollars. That’s if they have a full caseload. If they are not having a full caseload, I actually pay them less because it’s more expensive to have them. And it gives them incentive to keep going harder. But yeah, so they’re getting forty.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (17:24)
Sure.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (17:50)
And then they’re getting the health insurance, retirement matching all that on top of that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (17:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes. So everything comes in at 45%. Yeah. So I’m guessing there are folks out there who are like, I could never hire anyone with that deal. So how have you made that work? And how do you present this, maybe, to potential employees or current employees to make it attractive?
Whitney Owens (18:13)
Yes, I love that you’re asking
this question. Yeah. because I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently. We have had tons of turnover the past two years. Now I’ve had my group practice for since 18. So that eight years. Yeah. and the last two years have been by far the most turnover. And so I’ve done a lot of research, done interviews with the team, put all my data into AI and like really worked on, okay, what is it that’s happening here?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (18:21)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (18:39)
Hardly anyone said it was money. And I have only had one person who literally said in when they put in their notice, I’m doing this because I need to make more money. So I think therapists have this idea that that’s what it is. It’s not. None of us went into this work because we wanted to make a bunch of money. We went into this work because we want to help people, we want to connect with one another, and we want a lifestyle that we enjoy. Right? Now, money is important. So
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (18:42)
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Whitney Owens (19:07)
interestingly enough, I had another therapist who said to me, I’d like to be paid more. And I said, Okay, tell me more about that. And because I always am open to talking about money. And she said, Well, you know, when I took the job here, there was a practice down the road that was offering my me five more dollars an hour, and I could have taken that job. And that’s a pretty significant amount. She was a so associate-level therapist. I said, Well, why didn’t you just take that job? And she said,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:30)
Great question.
Whitney Owens (19:31)
Because I love the culture and the supervision of what you have here. And so so much of this is about your culture and what you’re creating. Now, I have supervision every week. We have multiple group tracks, we have staff meetings, people can reach out to us. You know, we call attorneys on their behalf. We do everything for these therapists. And that’s the culture I wanted to create. Because when I was in private practice, I was tired of being bogged down with.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:35)
Hmm.
Whitney Owens (19:58)
All the phone calls, trying to schedule people, not getting time off, not having health insurance. So I decided with the way I run my business, yeah, you’re gonna make a little less working here. So you’ve got to decide that that’s the kind of culture you want. But I want to have a lot of community here. And I’m gonna invest in a really nice space and I’m gonna invest in supervision that helps you. And when you get licensed, you still get supervision here, you know? So so I have to kind of share that with people. Like we are investing in you and your career, but we’re also
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:20)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (20:28)
And giving you a lot of clients, you know, you’re gonna get more. And like even if you went and did private practice, it’s gonna be more expensive than working here. If you were to look at the whole arc, and that’s another thing I have to help people see, like you’re gonna get these other benefits. And if you were to calculate all that in, the package is actually this amount. It’s not.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:50)
Right. Right. Yeah. Those are tough conversations, especially when you bring in the practice down the street. You know, you alluded to that, like people are comparing, right. And that can be tough if other practices are maybe not as stable or as financially secure. But the potential employee doesn’t know that they just see like, hey, they’re paying me like 10 or 15 percent more. But
who knows what’s going on in the background and if that practice is going to go under in six to 12 months or if the owners are completely burned out or whatever it may be. Like we did you know they don’t see that. So but it sounds like you are providing like a pretty high touch like high care environment for your employees. And that’s a big part of the rationale in that you know quote unquote lower pay rate.
Whitney Owens (21:41)
Yeah, that’s how I think about it. But then I also, when I like look at it, I’m like if you see twenty-five clients a week and you’re making a certain amount and you’re an associate level therapist, you’re not having to pay for supervision outside the practice, you know, making fifty, sixty thousand a year. I know that doesn’t sound great, but you’re still getting your hours. You know, you’re in your education. And so to me, I’m like, it’s not terrible. You know, like and when you get licensed, you get a significant raise once you get licensed here.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (21:47)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sure.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (22:09)
because that’s a very different situation.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:11)
Yeah, yeah. OK, I gotcha, I gotcha. So do you think about those differently, like licensed folks are maybe around that 45 % range and then pre-licensed or associate folks are more 35-ish. Yeah.
Whitney Owens (22:24)
Thirty-five to forty. It depends on if they have a full caseload, if they see couples, couples paperwork. We also have a bonus pay structure. So it’s been interesting. Some of the therapists don’t like that because they don’t like that we’re encouraging people to see a lot of clients. But in my mind, I’m like, look, they’re gonna do it anyway. So I’d rather incentivize and give them something for the hard work they’re doing. So if you see more than twenty five clients a week, you start making more per client.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:29)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Whitney Owens (22:50)
And then at the end of the quarter you get that bonus. So we did start doing that. And I think that some of those changes made a big difference. People seem happier. but the worst thing you can ever do is go negative, you know.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:56)
Mm-hmm, certainly.
What do you mean, like reduce people’s pay?
Whitney Owens (23:04)
reduce people’s pay or your practice goes negative. Right? And so if you’re even close to that threshold of the red line, what are you gonna do when you want to buy a building one day? What are you gonna do when a when something comes up or an attorney bill ends up being fifteen hundred dollars? Well your therapists don’t know that. You know that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:07)
sure, sure, Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, let’s just play this out to kind of fill in the gaps here. So people, again, might be saying, my gosh, 45 percent. Like, that’s really low. Where is the rest of the money going? And so for me, the way I think about it is like just ballpark. OK, 20 percent for overhead, 20 percent for profit, which, you know, taxes come out of that. And then 10 percent for savings. I don’t know. That’s like a ballpark, you know, of where the rest of the revenue goes. I don’t know. What? How would you answer?
Whitney Owens (23:53)
Because we did this with our team. So we had our like annual meeting in February, and we created a pie graph to show them where all the money goes. Like, hey, yeah, it was really interesting. because they don’t think about the admin team. You know, they do a lot for you, and we have to pay them. Or me. I run the practice, I run the marketing. Like, if I wasn’t doing that, you wouldn’t even have clients. So once we kind of showed them that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:56)
Okay.
⁓ nice.
Oh yeah. Mm hmm. Right.
Whitney Owens (24:20)
And I think it’s so important that you talk about money. So like we had one team member, and this part’s kind of sad, but this is how I have to do it. When you take time off, it’s an admin pay. It’s not the clinical rate pay. But to me it’s significantly less. But to me, time off and getting paid is better than not getting paid. And when I was a therapist in private practice, I didn’t get paid anything when I took time off. But one of the gals was like, wait, what just happened? I didn’t know I was getting this, even though it’s in the policy, but she just wasn’t prepared.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (24:23)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Whitney Owens (24:49)
And we had to explain to her, like, there’s no income coming in when you take time off. And she was like, Well, like another therapist who didn’t understand why people couldn’t just take off when they wanted to and I said, Well, one time too many of you took off and then I didn’t get paid that month And he was like
my gosh, really? And I was like, yeah, I’m the owner. And that’s what happens when we go negative, you know, and that doesn’t happen very often, but that’s when I learned that, hey, only two people at a time can take off the same week because that’s what happens. And and so I think talking to them about those challenges, I think a lot of people are scared of that as group owners, but it actually allows them to kind of buy in more and care more and understand more.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (25:24)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Yeah, I like that. I know there’s a lot of debate about how much how transparent to be with our folks about about money and I like leaning in this direction being more transparent. I think it goes a long way. Yeah, so I’m take two steps back in our conversation here and go back to the point that you made about not liking the contractor model.
A lot of people want to do contractors. That’s the way people want to start. I’m just going to get a couple contractors and see how this goes. What’s your thinking around the contractor?
Whitney Owens (26:00)
Yeah, hey, I did that too. And guess what? Both of were gone in eight months. Yeah. And then I switched to W two. so for me, a big part was just culture. Like in essence, you’re bringing in everyone that has their own business into one space, trying to pretend like you are one business when you’re really not. It is higher turnover.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (26:04)
Okay. Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (26:22)
One practice owner that switched at the same time I did, she had 12 to 14 therapists and just couldn’t get past that constantly. When she transitioned, now she’s at 60 therapists. So sh yeah, people stayed. And I wanted a culture that was committed to one another, that we weren’t just looking out for our own best interests, we’re interest one another. also, I know it sounds crazy, but you can pay better with W2 because you can include so much more.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (26:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Whitney Owens (26:50)
And the business is more profitable when you’re a W two practice, which means everyone benefits, not just the owner. I don’t really understand that maths. You’d have to ask and account it, but I have seen it over and over again, more profit with W two based practices, as long as you’re not paying the people too much.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (26:50)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And are you, as far as compensation structure, are you doing a flat hourly rate? Are you doing a percentage of income? Are you doing a salary?
Whitney Owens (27:17)
Yeah, a flat rate. If you do a percentage, they’re gonna just think about that. You know, the percent I’m not getting, even though they could do the math and figure it out. and I do have some salaried people, but those are all the like leadership team and the admin team. I am looking at starting salaries for people who are here four years. If you’ve consistently kept your caseload.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (27:22)
Yep. Yep. I’m right with you.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (27:39)
And some of been just kinda saying, like, it would be really nice to make the same thing every time, like the fluctuations challenging, especially summers or week or you know, or those kinds of things. So I am looking at that for people who’ve been here long enough.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (27:50)
Yeah, yeah, love that. I’ve talked on the podcast before about how we move to salaries maybe, I don’t know, four or five years ago. there’s some ups and downs. It’s a little more complicated in terms of forecasting and making sure that you’ve got coverage and the revenue is coming in and all of that. But it’s been a good move, at least for us. It’s a lot more predictable for me and for the employees. And I think it makes us more competitive as well.
We’re primarily trying to hire psychologists and testing folks in particular. We’re kind of competing, I think, with hospitals or universities. And they’re presenting it like a salary most of the time. It’s not like, hey, here’s this hourly rate that we’re negotiating. And certainly not a percentage.
Whitney Owens (28:31)
Yeah. Well, I think yeah.
Well, I think you bring up kind of a good point in like you’re gonna get a different kind of employee with a ten ninety nine and with a W two. Ten ninety nine tends to work at other places, part-time, you know, a lot of a lot of women with kids at home, you know, they only wanna see five clients, ten clients a week. And so you really don’t make much money off of that. And so a W two people are
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (28:42)
Mm-hmm. I think you’re right.
Whitney Owens (28:58)
not going other places, they’re committed to your culture and they want to see a lot of clients.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:03)
Mm-hmm. Yep. I think that’s true. And I don’t know, for better or for worse, you could think of it, or I think of it like a sort of level of control from the owner’s standpoint. that can be a good thing if you wield it correctly. You can control. Here’s what our schedules look like. Here’s what our branding looks like. Here’s what your reports look like. Here’s what our culture looks like. There’s a lot of good that can come from that, I think.
Whitney Owens (29:28)
Anybody?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:33)
I’m totally on board with the W2 model.
Whitney Owens (29:35)
Yeah, and we do have to explain all that at hiring. Like the more we’ve grown, the more policies, procedures, structure. And some therapists don’t like that. They expected less of that. And so we say, Hey, if you don’t like policies, procedures, structure, or someone to give you clients, like this is not the place for you. so that has really helped us get that buy in early on. Instead of people being frustrated with the structure, they want the structure.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:42)
gosh, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sure, sure, that’s fair. So let’s take one more big step back and go to, I think, one of my original questions, which is, how do folks know that they are ready to start a group practice? What other factors maybe need to be in place? What are we looking at?
Whitney Owens (30:10)
Well.
Yeah, I think having a successful solo practice first. It’s amazing how many people are like, I’m starting a group and hiring and they’ve never had a practice before.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:19)
Okay, okay.
Well, yeah, I see that and I see, I think you alluded to this way back, folks who are financially stressed in solo practice and then say, I’m gonna start a group to make more money. And I’m like, you’re like building a house on quicksand here. I don’t think that’s gonna go very well.
Whitney Owens (30:41)
Mm.
That’s a good way to say it. Yeah. Yeah. I also think you gotta have a steady referral stream. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:45)
Yeah.
Okay, and how would
you define a steady referral stream?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:10)
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Whitney Owens (33:16)
that at least seventy five percent of your caseload is full. And you’re, you know, I mean you’re seeing at least fifteen, twenty clients a week. You know, not you’re not seeing like five a week. but yeah, I think a lot of people make the mistake they want to see their caseload completely full before they hire. And if you do that, you don’t have time to hire.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (33:19)
Okay, great.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (33:39)
And you gotta make that investment. So I encourage people to start looking for if you know you want to start a group practice, start doing it when you’re about 75, 80% full. And I say the same thing once you are a group practice. You want to hire when everyone is at that point. Don’t wait until everyone’s full or your certain specialty EMDR therapist is full because then you’re s running around and you know, not able to schedule people. And so that’s a good kind of rule of thumb.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (33:47)
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (34:06)
I I definitely think those are some of I think having a good financial sense, you have to be okay with money. You’ve worked on your money stuff because money fears will really mess with you and being able to make investments. And I would say the best practice owners are ones that are willing to spend money.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (34:07)
I like that.
Okay, yeah, say more about that. Where do they spend money and what’s that look like?
Whitney Owens (34:23)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I think s some of the best ways to spend money is in business consulting, hands down. Cause these are people that have been doing it forever and can save you from a lot of financial mistakes. I’m thinking about one girl, you know, stories come to you as you’re talking. This one girl, I was doing consulting with her and I said something to her that was like a thousand dollar save.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (34:32)
Mmm, yeah.
Whitney Owens (34:47)
And she’s like, my gosh. And I said, Yeah, that just paid for your consulting. You know, like like you you don’t know what you don’t know. And so I think having a commun, so that’s either maybe you have a consultant or you’re in a mastermind group or some kind of membership community where you’re getting that information. Sure, social media, Facebook, you might learn something, but honestly, you’re you don’t know if those people know what they’re talking about. So you might be giving that advice.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:10)
I mean, it’s a good point.
Yeah, it’s true.
Whitney Owens (35:13)
Yeah. So I’d say that. I would say investing in your SEO website, Google Ads, all that, that’s a good investment, as long as you’re tracking it and making sure it’s working. Investing in your admin team.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:23)
Yeah.
Whitney Owens (35:28)
And a lot of people think I don’t want to hire an assistant because I don’t have the money, but they don’t pay attention to how they’re gonna make money by having somebody answer the phones and schedule clients and all that kind of stuff. So that’s a big part of my success is making investments like those. And a lot of people just they wanna be successful without having to make investments and I’m just like, you’re not ever gonna get there.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:42)
Yes.
Right. Would you go so far as to say it is a prerequisite to starting a group practice that you have an admin team of some sort, or an admin person at least?
Whitney Owens (35:59)
go that far, but it’s a great idea. I didn’t. That’s why I’m laughing. I made that mistake. I had a group for seven months before I hired my first admin and I was like, Where where have I been? It was so stressful, like taking calls for two other therapists in my practice. Ugh.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:05)
I don’t know if I did either.
Yeah.
yeah, yeah. I don’t think I did either. So this is a great example of, you know, learn from my mistakes and do it different. Yeah, it is tough. It’s a chicken or egg question, I think, but you know, at least like having their head in that headed in that direction, like, Hey, I’m going to need admin support and do it sooner than later.
Whitney Owens (36:24)
Right. That’s right. Mm-hmm.
Hundred percent.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:39)
Yeah, yeah, I’m with you. Let’s see what other aspects might indicate that someone is ready to start a group practice and then a good space for that.
Whitney Owens (36:48)
Yeah. I think a lot of people are thinking about it and actually not moving on it. So if you’ve been thinking about it for a while, you’re probably more ready than you realize. I had another gal I spoke to and and I was like, Hey, you know, what do you what is it that you want to work on? She’s like, Well, I want to start a group practice, but I don’t want to do that for at least six months. And I said, Okay, tell me why. She said, Well, I want to grow my caseload more. I need to learn more about business, I need to be there. And I Okay, well, tell me about your caseload.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:54)
Hmm.
Okay.
Whitney Owens (37:16)
She already had a consistent caseload that was coming in. She already had space. And I was like, if you wait six more months, you’re gonna lose six months of time. You already have all the components right now. It was just like her own fear. And we started working together and she was she had her group practice by the end of the six months, which was really exciting. Yeah, so s so I think people are more set up sometimes than they realize. And if they’ve been thinking about it while, they should do it.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (37:37)
Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (37:45)
but they need to do it for the right reasons of course, not just the financial reasons that we’ve already talked.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (37:51)
Right, right. Yeah. And going into it eyes wide open, I think, helps a lot. Like we’ve been talking about, hey, this is going to be a shift in your role and your time and your finances. Certainly. Certainly.
Whitney Owens (37:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another big
mistake that I see is investing in space too early.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:09)
I was going to ask about this. Yes. Yes.
Whitney Owens (38:10)
Okay.
Yeah. So people will say, I can’t start a group practice till I have more offices. I’m like, no, you just need yours. Like you’re not in there twenty four seven. Someone else can come in and use that space when you’re not in it. And so people are amazed by that. When I had my group, I had six therapists in two offices. It was madness. And I was waiting on more space. It wasn’t opening up and everybody was so frustrated. I was like, here we go, you know? But
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:15)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. yeah, I bet.
Whitney Owens (38:38)
Yeah, you don’t need more space. Most people spend too much on space. A good rule of thumb is six to eight percent of your monthly revenue on space. Sometimes I go up to ten, but really don’t want to go past that. And too many people think, I’ll grow into it. I’ll hire for it. But you can’t guarantee that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
It’s such a good point. I’m with you on this as well. Like I’m pretty conservative about office space. And that was one of the biggest, I guess you’d say mistakes. I mean, it certainly one of the most stressful times financially in our practice is when I took a huge leap and basically doubled our space in a new lease and then had a lot of pressure and just didn’t hire quickly enough for it to pay for itself before it got stressful.
So just to reinforce that point, I think you can stretch off a space a long way, like further than you think.
Whitney Owens (39:34)
That’s right. You could put at least two people in each space.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:36)
Sure, sure. that, I love numbers. I love that you’re talking about numbers. you know, folks keep that six to 8 % in mind. That’s a good rule of thumb.
Whitney Owens (39:46)
Well that’s from Julie at Greenoak. So she knows her stuff.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:48)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was going to ask about that as well. You seem to be pretty, you know, financially literate, which is we need to be right as group practice owners, but we didn’t learn this in school. I’m guessing you didn’t learn this in grad school. So, I mean, what have you done over the years and what do you encourage people to do to like get their heads wrapped around the numbers a little
Whitney Owens (40:10)
Yeah, look at
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:12)
Hahaha
Whitney Owens (40:12)
And in and in my consulting work, so many people I have to like literally get in the call with them and have them pull up their PL and like talk through it because they’re so anxious about money, they don’t even look at it. And you can’t make improvements without it. I love profit first. You know, a lot of people know what that is at this point. if you don’t, it’s the concept of we put away profit before we spend on anything else. Cause most people
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (40:36)
Look at their checkbook and they’re like, I can spend money. Money’s there. But then they’re not balancing and thinking about what’s coming, and they’re not putting profit aside to for themselves or for me. Sometimes I use that for buying buildings. so you know, you got to be able to have some way to manage your money. And a lot of what Profit First does, and it’s a little Dave Ramsey-ish, you know, the whole envelope system, which you can think what you want about that. but just to give people a concept, it’s like putting people
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:57)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Whitney Owens (41:03)
putting money in a bucket and it stays in that bucket, that envelope, and it doesn’t get touched. So then every time we do two, like for us, we do it when we run payroll. And so then we put money in OPEX, money in this, money in this. And so it helps us see the percentage going into each one. And when I started doing that, that’s actually when I realized that I had more money than I realized. And I could actually invest more in my team. And that’s when I started doing more benefits, ⁓ retirement matching, stuff like that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (41:25)
Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (41:32)
When I started seeing that I actually had more money than I realized, but profit first has been game changer for me in my business.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (41:40)
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s important to highlight that there can be stressful times with money, certainly, and times when we don’t have enough. But getting a good handle on your numbers can also be a really nice surprise. hey, I actually do have money, like more than I thought. And now you have a good handle on how much that is and what you can do with that. That’s a fun choice, right? Yeah. Did you, let’s see, would you recommend having an accountant or a bookkeeper if you are starting a group practice?
Has that been helpful?
Whitney Owens (42:08)
Yeah, you should probably have it as a solo practice too. Yeah. I call people I call it the dream team when you start a group practice and when when people first start out, we kind of have like a six month training that we do with them. And at the very beginning, it’s kind of those basics. Do you have an LLC? Do you have QuickBooks? Do you have a separate bank account? You know, but then it’s do you have your dream team? That’s your accountant, that is your consultant, and that is your attorney.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:11)
Yeah, yeah, certainly.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Okay.
Whitney Owens (42:38)
Because you’ve got to have a relationship with an attorney for hiring. So employee law. they’re gonna do your contracts paper, that kind thing. But stuff happens. And you’re gonna be glad I got somebody’s phone number. I’m like knocking on wood. I haven’t had to call in a little bit, but yeah. When stuff happens, I need someone right then. And some people will be like, I’ll call my liability. Well, your liability attorney does that, doesn’t do employee stuff. And when stuff happens, you need somebody.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:49)
Yeah, it sure does.
Yeah, yep. I think that’s super important. People do ask about that a lot. Do I need an attorney? And I think most of the time they’re talking about a liability attorney or somebody to like review paperwork or something. And in those cases, I’m usually like, nah, I mean, probably not, you know, except in some exceptions, but, but the HR slash employment attorney, super important. That’s been some of the best money I’ve ever spent over the years. Cause those are the biggest problems.
Whitney Owens (43:27)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (43:32)
If it really becomes a problem, those are big problems and it’s good to have somebody to help you through it.
Whitney Owens (43:33)
They are
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Hundred percent.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (43:39)
Yeah, that’s great. What are some of the other, let’s see, we can get super concrete. Like, do you think about this in terms of steps? if I want to start a group practice, like say I’ve, you know, been listening, check these boxes, got the referral stream, I’m ready to be a business owner, I’m ready to manage people, I think, you know, et cetera. Where do people go from there?
Whitney Owens (43:59)
Yeah, that’s great. I love having this step by step process. ⁓ I think of it as three phases. One is kind of the foundation setup phase. So, you know, saying we do it in a six month time frame. So two months for each one. So the first part is is my practice set up to be a group practice. Everyone says to me, I don’t need that part. I got it. And then when I start telling them, they’re like, So that’s the LLC. And actually a lot of people, their name is bad.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (44:03)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (44:28)
It’s either a bad name or it’s their name. And I’m like kind of intense about that because how is a group gonna feel when it’s your name? You know? So it’s changing your culture, your model, your your copy for group. So that could be the branding of your practice to be for a group practice, the name of your practice, and then your website copy will need to change to we instead of I and have you know include other specialties. So you gotta add all this. So you start kind of like working on some of these
concepts. if you don’t have a phone line yet, some people use their personal phone as a solo owner. I I certainly did. So I had to get a phone number that, you know, we could use for other people and a phone line that worked and emails for everybody, making sure your EHR allows you to add people, checking prices on that. So it’s looking at every part of your practice and making sure it’s in line to add people. And then also those foundations we already talked about, getting the attorney, getting the CPA, that kind stuff. So that’s the foundations.
And then the next part is actually adding people. So now you’ve done that, you figured out like kind of your values, your mission, what you’re doing. Now you got to put that into job ads, figuring out pay structure, figuring out your culture, what you’re offering people, and what kind of space they’re going to use. So it’s how do I hire and bring them on? How do I do interviews? a big thing we’ve just changed recently is we
do values based interviews instead of clinically based interviews. And I used to do more clinically based, but I just found that like usually it’s a values thing. We’re not aligned and that’s the problem. I can teach you how to be a good therapist. I can’t teach you how to do values. I can’t teach you how to humble, you know, or have integrity. so so we focus on those things. And then we all Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:08)
Yeah. Can I ask you, when you
say you’ve turned it into a values-based interview, what does that actually look like question-wise versus a clinical interview?
Whitney Owens (46:18)
Yeah, that’s great. So when they come for their interview, we have like questions related to the five values that we have. And they’re all situational. And we ask them what they would do in certain situations that would show if you’re a humble person or if you’re a person of integrity, if you’re growth minded. and and it’s been interesting to have the exact same questions over and over again and hear the ways different people respond to them. So yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:24)
Mm-hmm.
Sure, sure. I love that. yeah.
I could say a lot about values. We stick with our values pretty closely as well. And I love that idea of weaving them into hiring. Yeah, it’s great.
Whitney Owens (46:49)
Yeah. Yeah. But
the last phase, after you kind of hired an onboard is is really going back and looking at is this working? ⁓ so those last two months of, hey, is the marketing that you’re doing, you know, how do I market and is it working? And is my money actually working? So you’ve had this person working for you for two months. You need to make sure you’re actually making money off of that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:58)
Hmm.
Whitney Owens (47:11)
Are they having retention issues? Are they keeping their clients? How do you have a staff meeting? How do you meet one on one with them? What do you say to them? So it’s more of that like setup now that they’re with you. Is it working? How do I market? And how do I continue on?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (47:26)
Yeah, yeah. I love a good process and a good three-step model. So I appreciate you articulating that. Just to put some structure to it, think folks get overwhelmed really easily with what to do and when to do it.
Whitney Owens (47:42)
Totally. Well, I also love hiring in twos. That’s another big rule that I give. Yeah. So people when you hire one person, you’re spending more time, money, energy, training. If you hire in twos, they’re spending time together. So they form a camaraderie. In fact
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (47:46)
Ooh, say more about that.
Whitney Owens (48:00)
Two of the girls that I hired in August of 2019 are still with me together. And so when their work versary comes around, they like text about that. It’s so cute. but I think having a cohort brings more community. and so I’ve always said it, and and look, not everyone’s gonna stick. There’s such turnover in this field, and so you’ll be glad you hired two because one may not make it. ⁓ so
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:05)
Mm-hmm. Gosh.
Whitney Owens (48:25)
The goal of kind of the six month program that we do to help people start a group practice, hopefully by the end of the six months, you’ve had two people hired and an assistant. It’s kind of the goal.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I like that. I like that. I think there is research out there saying that having a quote unquote best friend at work is one of the biggest predictors of staying. And that’s a great, just a big step right off the bat toward that. Like having two people come in together and they kind of bond and share work or anniversaries. That’s really cool. Yeah. So I know we could talk forever and do many episodes just on hiring, but.
Talk to me briefly about where you’re finding good candidates these days.
Whitney Owens (49:07)
Good question. I might have to think about that for just a second. I have one kind of funny story. I’m laughing because I’m thinking about so we actually are about to bring on five people. They’re all coming at different times. I know, laugh. I know, it’s funny. but this is the first time I’ve overhired. And I say that because I have now realized if you look at statistics, I don’t think we’ve talked about this yet.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:15)
Okay.
Whitney Owens (49:28)
I think about it a lot though. If you look at the research, private practice turnover is at least 30%. Which per year. Yep. Some up to 50%. Normal turnover is 10% for a regular business. So you should expect 30% of your people to leave. That brought me a lot of comfort because that’s about the track I’m on. I was like, okay, I’m not doing as bad as I thought.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:29)
Mm-hmm.
OK.
Whitney Owens (49:50)
so then I thought, okay, well, I should hire knowing that’s gonna happen, right? Because the worst thing that could happen, and you just actually you alluded to this earlier, is not hiring fast enough. Right. So even last year, I think we lost eight therapists on a team of 17. It was brutal. Now, you would think that we would have tanked or we would have gone negative, but we kept up with our hiring.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:09)
my gosh.
huh.
Whitney Owens (50:19)
And I was emotional. I’m like, and it was a really awful, actually some really toxic stuff happened. It was the most toxic year I’d had with team members. And my COO was like, We’re moving on, we’re moving on, we’re hiring. When I kept being like, I don’t want to hire. This is such trouble. And now I look back and I’m like, that was the best thing that and we improved our churn ratio. We brought that up a good bit. And so that made a big difference in making more money. But I was like, Whew, like we could have we could have been sinkers, you know.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:32)
You
Okay.
yeah, yeah. That’s a huge hit. mean, half your staff, basically.
Whitney Owens (50:48)
Yeah, so
Yeah.
Well, it’s like toxic people spread rumors, all the things happened. so we had to like nip that in the butt and now we’ve made some turns and you know, we’re focusing more on our values and it’s been it’s been good in the long run. But talking about the hirings, I’ve learned you’ve gotta overhire. So we we’ve have five people coming. We hired one two weeks ago. We’re recording this in May, we or June. we hired one two to three weeks ago, another’s coming next week, two coming in July, and another is coming in September.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:56)
Yep.
Whitney Owens (51:21)
Several of these just email us. As you grow and you get a reputation, people just reach out, which is great. We hold on to every resume. There’s like just a folder because you never know when someone’s gonna quit. So let’s just keep all the resumes. But these two girls that are coming now are from Mississippi. And so of the five, three of the five are wait, no, four of the five are moving here for
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:27)
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (51:47)
Like, no, actually, I’m sorry, three of the five are moving here for the actual job itself, which I’ve never hired for people moving here. And then one of them was going to be moving here anyway. So technically four of them are moving here, which is crazy to me. but two of them went to the same grad school and they were just looking for cities they’d want to live in. And Savannah was on their list. And then one of them applied and the other one applied, and then one of them went to class and said, Hey, I
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:55)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Okay.
Whitney Owens (52:13)
I got an interview at this place in Savannah. And the other one was like, what place? And she said Waters Edge Counseling. The girl was like, I sent my resume there too. Isn’t that funny? And then they both came here together for their interview. And we’re hiring them together. Great therapists. One does kids, one has EMDR. But I think overhiring is really important. we do get a lot of good candidates from Indeed.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:26)
⁓
That’s wild.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Whitney Owens (52:39)
So, I mean, you know, you gotta pay attention to that. And sometimes I have to put money on it, sometimes I don’t have to put money on it. We’ve gotten a few candidates from LinkedIn, but I really don’t get as good a situation with LinkedIn as as I do. And, you know, word of mouth. So
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:45)
Mm-hmm.
Right, right. That makes sense. That makes sense. We’ve had pretty good success with Indeed. Haven’t really tried the others. Word of mouth is great. But that’s pretty serious to have folks move from out of state.
Whitney Owens (53:07)
Yeah, it’ll be interesting. It’ll be interesting. interns are good too. So we love having interns. It’s kind of like a glorified job interview. And then if they do really well, we keep them. So that’s another way to hire.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:09)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, definitely. And are you distinguishing interns from pre-licensed or associate therapists? Yeah. Gotcha. Great. Great. Yeah. Yeah, I’m with you. I’ve talked about that a lot. you know, our interns and post-docs have been a big part of our hiring pipeline over the years, which is great. You know, like you said, extended interview on both sides. They get to check us out. We get to check them out. Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic.
Whitney Owens (53:25)
Yes, interns are in school. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
That’s right. That’s right.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:47)
Let’s see, what else feels important here? We’ve covered a lot of ground in a short period of time. Are there other things that we haven’t touched on that you like to emphasize with folks or talk about with folks as they’re considering starting a group practice?
Whitney Owens (54:02)
Gosh, I feel like we’ve covered a lot of the the stuff at the beginning, you know. I think a lot of the work I do with people is really just about mindset and figuring out like don’t live in fear. You gotta take risks. have fun in the process because a lot of times we’re holding our breath and then we don’t enjoy it. and I am a huge fan of EOS.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Me too. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about your experience. Yeah.
Whitney Owens (54:25)
Okay. Yeah. We could have done a whole other thing on that. ⁓
yeah, so interesting. So when I was a smaller group practice when EOS was the fad, what was that? In like 2022 or something? Uh-huh. I remember sitting on a beach. Of course, look at me reading a workbook on the beach. you would tell me, no, Whitney. I’m doing that. And I’m like, this book is stupid. That’s what I thought. Dumb book, another process and procedure that someone thinks they know that’s gonna save my business.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:37)
That sounds right, yeah, yeah.
Nice.
Whitney Owens (54:53)
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I threw it aside. And then last chick last year I went to Chicago with our dear friend Uriah. And Uriah looks at me and he goes, You just need an integrator. I said, What the is that an integrator? He said, I want you to read this book, Rocket Fuel, and it’s gonna help you understand what I’m talking about. So I got rocket fuel and it blew my mind, right? I was like, I am such a visionary.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:01)
yeah.
Ha ha ha.
Whitney Owens (55:19)
my goodness. So I need balance with the integrator. And really we’re talking about a CEO and a COO, right? I mean, that’s in essence what it is. It’s just a different way to say it. That kind of I I love the visionary integrator ideas. and then I was like, okay, I’m reading traction again. So I picked that book up and it made so much sense. And I was like, this is it. And so really traction is the entrepreneur entrepreneur operating system, and it’s for larger businesses.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:19)
Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (55:47)
I think the reason I didn’t like it was because I didn’t understand how it would help me when I was small. And so I actually I’m a I’m a rule follower. So I hired a fractional integrator who understands EOS. Mm-hmm. And
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:52)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, nice.
Whitney Owens (56:02)
I really was trying to get my consulting business more organized because that felt disorganized and Water’s Edge I thought was fun. But then once I started meeting with somebody, I was like, Woo, I need this in Water’s Edge. And boy, I mean, it really it was hard to start implementing, you know. But once we did and I got people in the seats and stuff, it’s been excellent. You know, the L10 meetings and the traction that we get, I couldn’t be more grateful. I do do it at Water’s Edge, but it’s so it’s been really interesting to see trying the same process with two businesses that make very different engagements.
income levels. ⁓ very different staff, ⁓ much harder at wise practice, but still still helpful of course. So yeah, so you liked
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (56:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that.
I did like it. Yeah, we kind of went all in, you know, like we hired the implementer and everything. We did like the two years of coaching with the implementer. This was back when we were larger, you know, and I think at that time it really helped just organize things and give us some structure. And I still have carried one, you know, the values. So EOS, I think is heavy, you know, values driven and, know, like we talked about.
The L10 meeting structure has been fantastic and rocks. I love the idea of rocks and what we’re focused on every quarter to move our practice forward. So yeah, it’s still a big part of what we do.
Whitney Owens (57:20)
that’s great. Yeah. And actually my mastermind group, which is group owners, they were having a really they were just getting so overwhelmed and they weren’t really moving forward. So I was like, I want all y’all to make rocks. You know, so they each made a rock and I explained what one was and then they all got their rocks done in the group. So it like really helped them get that momentum and hit milestones. And you start hitting a milestone, you feel good about yourself.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (57:37)
Mm-hmm.
absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could talk about the U.S. forever. You know, I really, really enjoy it. This has been good, Whitney. I appreciate it. I love talking to you about this stuff. I mean, it’s clear, you know, you’ve had some ups and downs, I think, like we all have. And just being able to turn that into material that is helpful to other people is such a gift. So I really appreciate you being here and sharing all of this with us.
Whitney Owens (57:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (58:11)
Yeah.
If folks want to reach out to you, find you, like do your stuff, what’s the best way to do that?
Whitney Owens (58:18)
Sure, sure, wonderful. Well, thanks for asking. Yeah. So I tend to do a lot of things. so I have Water’s Edge Counseling, which is the practice that’s here in Savannah. we have two locations, 15 or so therapists, depending on the day, right? ⁓ private pay. And then I also have WASP Practice Consulting, which is a consulting firm to help specifically faith-based practice owners start growing scale their private practice. So we’re seeing people anywhere from I’m just starting out of practice.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (58:22)
NNNN
Mm-hmm.
Whitney Owens (58:45)
do all the way to you know seven figure practices. we have a membership community. So it’s like an online $89 a month. You can get all the resources teaching. Some in there teaching stuff like what we’re talking about right now. and then we all I have a podcast which you’re gonna be on Wise Practice. And I also host a in person conference which you’ve been to a few times. ⁓ called the Wise Practice Summit. And it’s this year it’s gonna be in October. We always do it in October, but it’ll be in Nashville. So I’m excited to go to Nashville.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (58:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, yes. I know I’m so bummed. I can’t make it. We were talking before we started to record. But yeah, I’ll put a shout out for that. For a conference atmosphere, it’s really cool. And even for testing folks, there’s a good bit of business content. It’s not just clinical, like therapy kind of stuff. So yeah, if you want to go to Nashville and have a good time with good people.
Whitney Owens (59:35)
Thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (59:38)
It was good to see you as always. Thanks for being here.
Whitney Owens (59:41)
Hundred percent. Thank you, Jeremy.
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