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  • 136 Transcript

    [00:00:00] Dr. Sharp: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Testing Psychologist podcast, the podcast where we talk all about the business and practice of psychological and neuropsychological assessment. I’m your host, Dr. Jeremy Sharp, a licensed psychologist, group practice owner, and private practice coach.

    Okay, y’all, we are back for a business episode talking all about where to find your next psychometrist or maybe your first psychometrist.

    For a lot of us, bringing on a  psychometrist is the first foray into expanding our practice with good reason. It’s a good way to bring someone on yet still retain quite a bit of control over the work that they do. So, a lot of folks bring on a  psychometrist first so that they can try it out and figure out what it’s like to actually hire someone and get used to letting go of control, which is quite a difficult thing for a lot of us to do.

    So, I’m going to be talking today about why you’d want to hire a psychometrist [00:01:00] and then move into where to actually find that individual. And then finally, I’ll talk just a little bit about how to vet a psychometrist. This episode is for all of you who have wanted to take the leap but haven’t been exactly sure how to do that or where to find that person.

    Before we get to the conversation, two things. I have my upcoming webinar co-sponsored by Build Great Teams and the Psychologists’ Association of Alberta that’s happening next Thursday, August 20th. I’m co-presenting with Dr. Ryan Matchullis around Psychological Assessment of Children. I’m going to go over the basics, and then Ryan will be talking all about working with challenging kids over telehealth, which is a hot topic and something I’ve gotten a lot of questions about. So, you can find the link to register for [00:02:00] that in the show notes. And I hope to see you there.

    And for any of you who are looking for a group coaching experience, the opportunity to collaborate and connect with other practice owners who are right at your stage of development, or maybe a little ahead, or maybe just a little behind, my Advanced Practice Mastermind Group is going to be starting in September. That group is filling up quickly. So, if you are interested, again in a group coaching experience where you get hands-on support with your precise issues in a group of psychologists who are just about right where you’re at in practice, I’d love to chat with you and see if it’s a good fit. You can go to thetestingpsychologist.com/advanced, or check out the link in the show notes to schedule a pre-group call.

    All right, let’s get to our episode [00:03:00] on finding a psychometrist.

    Okay, y’all, here we are. We are back talking all about how to bring on a psychometrist and really where to find that person. I’m going to spend just a little bit of time talking about why you want to bring on a psychometrist in the first place, and then we’ll spend the bulk of the episode talking about where to find that person.

    When I started my practice, I really didn’t know any better, to be honest. And I brought on a psychometrist very early in the process because that’s all that I knew. When I was in grad school, I worked for two years in a neuropsychological practice as a psychometrist and I just thought that that’s [00:04:00] just what you do when you get into private practice. As a testing person, you have a psychometrist.

    So, as soon as it became clear that I could not fit in all of the testing referrals that I was getting, that’s when I jumped on to the process of finding a  psychometrist. Fortunately, in my case, I practice in the city that I went to grad school in and I was able to go back to our graduate department and look for grad students to serve as psychometrists. And that turned out really well.

    Now, I know not all of you may have the luxury. So, we’ll talk about plenty of other places to find a psychometrist, but the point being, I jumped in pretty early and quickly and certainly made some mistakes, but I also learned quite a good bit as well.

    Let me talk just a little bit about why you would hire a psychometrist.

    I’m not going to get in the weeds with this because I think it is fairly intuitive, [00:05:00] but the main trade-off is time and money. So when you hire a psychometrist, you are basically freeing up more time in your schedule to do whatever you would like for a relatively low amount of money. So, psychometrists typically get reimbursed or paid rather, I would say about 20 to 25% of our hourly rates.

    Now, there’s some variability there depending on your market and how much you’re charging per hour, but I think that’s a good ballpark to start with. So you can see right off the bat that if you are only paying someone about 20% of your hourly rate to do a job that you don’t necessarily have to do, that’s a really good deal.

    We talked a few episodes ago about how your time [00:06:00] is worth money. And this is another example of where that principle comes up. So, if you are spending, let’s just say, five hours per testing case just to keep it at a nice round number, and you’re doing two cases a week, that’s 10 hours that you can free up by turning that work over to a psychometrist.

    Whatever you do with that time is up to you. A lot of us will use that time to see more clients. So, we’re essentially getting reimbursed our full hourly rate while the psychometrist is also working and getting reimbursed for their time. So, the income tends to multiply quickly in those cases rather than just working on your own.

    So that’s, I’d say, the main [00:07:00] advantage, but there are other reasons too. Sometimes folks don’t want to fill that time. And you can just dial back your schedule a bit and maybe have time to actually write those reports or be with your family or take some alone time or whatever it may be.

    One of the other main reasons that I really enjoy employing psychometrists is for the aspect of giving back to the field a bit. I tend to employ grad students as psychometrists, advanced grad students. And it’s a really nice way to provide some training, to form relationships with local universities so that you can provide a practicum experience, and just give back to the field and do some supervision. And I really enjoy that. Some of you may not, and that’s fine. There are definitely options for non-grad student psychometrists, but that is [00:08:00] one thing that I really love about having a psychometrist.

    So, those are just a few reasons that you might consider a psychometrist.

    And again, a psychometrist can almost be a proxy for expanding your practice even further and get you used to the idea of bringing on another clinician and give you some practice at letting go of control of your assessment process, which a lot of us need some work with.

    So, if you have decided that you are open to finding a psychometrist, let’s talk about where you might actually look for that person. I’ve heard so many times over the years that it’s hard to find a psychometrist. So, let’s talk about where you might look.

    Now, I’m going to give you five places and that’s going to expand a little bit. Actually, I’m going to give you two bonus options to look for, but there are plenty of others. I’m not going to list [00:09:00] absolutely all of them, but these are the ones that I would say are the top five places that you might look.

    All right. In my experience, like I mentioned, a former graduate program is a great place to look for a psychometrist. If you’re lucky enough to be practicing in the area that you went to grad school and you appreciated your grad school’s training, of course, this is a fantastic option. Hopefully, you still have a relationship with that program and you have a good sense of what the training looks like. And in my case, this meant that I could really trust the psychometrist that I was bringing on because I knew what they were doing in grad school. I knew that it was quality training, and I knew that it was pretty heavy on assessment.

    Now, I will say, if you’re looking at grad students as a psychometrist, I only take advanced grad students who already have their master’s. They’re usually in their 3rd or 4th year of their Ph.D. [00:10:00] program. And you can count on the fact that they have a pretty solid assessment base already.

    I never hire psychometrists who have no assessment experience simply because I don’t want to have to start from the ground up in training a grad student or psychometrist in how to administer tests. I want folks with a good bit of experience. And these have been pretty easy to come by.

    So that’s the first place that you might look. Check out your former graduate program, email the training director and see if there are any options for grad students to come to your practice for a practicum or just an externship or whatever they might call it. It may be any number of names. Different departments call it different things, but externship or practicum placements seem to be the most common. So that’s one place.

    [00:11:00] The second place that you might look, and this seems counterintuitive, but you will do well to look at APA internship sites and postdoc sites in the area. You can find these in the APPIC directory, both internships and post-docs.

    And you might be saying to yourself, wait a minute, these folks already have full-time jobs. Why do they want to come and work in my practice?

    Well, because there aren’t a ton of assessment-based internships out there, and there are plenty of both interns and post-docs who might want to make a little bit of extra money and get a little extra experience. So this is great for someone or a practice owner rather, a psychologist who may just need one day a week, or you want to hand over one case a week [00:12:00] and you don’t need to bring someone on full time and you don’t want to worry about providing enough work to satisfy a full-time schedule. So, this is a great option for those of you who may just need a little bit of help in your practice. And again, that’s a good way to weigh in. And if you find someone who’s an intern or post-doc, the chances are they have a decent amount of experience as well, kind of like those advanced graduate students that I was talking about.

    All right. Another place that you can look is basically any graduate-level psychology program in the area. So, if you are, again, anywhere near institutions of higher education, you can look for school psychology programs, masters in psychology programs, even some master’s level allied health professional fields. Some [00:13:00] of them will provide basic training in assessment. And if you’re willing to take on a little bit more responsibility on your side to do some of that training, these are places to find graduate students who might want to get some experience that they may not exactly get in their program.

    So I would not limit myself to clinical psychology programs or counseling psychology programs necessarily. There are plenty of other options where they do take courses in assessment and may have the experience that you’re looking for to come work in your practice.

    Now, at least in my experience, there are plenty of speech therapists and even occupational therapists who have experience with administering standardized [00:14:00] assessments. So, you don’t have to limit yourself even to psychology programs. You can look at some of those other, again, allied health professional programs that may have experienced with test administration and scoring because when we really get down to it, and I should’ve probably said this at the beginning, the process of administering and scoring standardized measures is fairly consistent across measures.

    The tests obviously are different and have different rules for administration and guidelines and measure different things, we all know that, but I think we all also know that if you’ve administered one or two tests, you can extrapolate pretty easily to many others. It’s this general process of following the administration guidelines, knowing what to look for during the administration, and scoring accurately. Those are basically the three [00:15:00] components that we’re really looking for. And I would encourage you all not to be snobby about where you look for that, especially in this regard for a psychometrist.

    Another place that you can look for a psychometrist is the “official place,” which is the Board of Certified Psychometrist directory. So this is a thing. They are not widely known at least in this area. I think it’s getting more popular, certainly, and becoming more of an expectation, especially in hospitals that you have a certified psychometrist administering your tests, but if you don’t know what that is, there’s a link in the show notes to the Board of Certified Psychometrist. There’s a directory on that website and it lists all the certified psychometrists by state.

    So these are individuals who have gone through a [00:16:00] supervised extended experience with thousands of hours administering tests, and they have sat for a certification exam to theoretically ensure that the skills are in place to reach board certification. So, you can look at the list and you’ll see that even in all 50 states, the list is relatively short.

    So, like I said, this is not a hugely popular field, but it is growing in popularity, certainly. And I would not downplay that. Especially if you live in a metropolitan area, the likelihood that you will find a certified psychometrist is relatively high. So check that link out in the show notes and just know that if you go this route, that individual will likely ask for a higher hourly rate simply because they have extra training.

    [00:17:00] All right. I think we’re at four. The last official area that I wanted to point you toward is just a good old fashion hiring website. I have found really good luck with Indeed. There are others. ZipRecruiter is an option. I don’t know that I would go beyond that. But between those two, you should have at least a decent chance of finding a psychometrist. And this is of course, geographically dependent on who’s out there in your area, but you can certainly find good folks on the employment website.

    So check out Indeed, check out ZipRecruiter, and just make sure to write your ad very clearly so that the individual knows exactly what they will be getting into and exactly what you are looking for in your practice. And you may have to experiment with [00:18:00] two different ad titles. So, a psychometrist might work, a psychometrician might work, a psychological assistant, any of those can be helpful. Just know that if you don’t get a lot of bites right off the bat, you may need to tweak the title.

    Now, I told you that I was going to give you a bonus area and actually I have two bonus areas. One of those is LinkedIn. LinkedIn could be considered a job site. You could certainly pay for it and do their premium features where you list a job and get applicants and so forth. But if you don’t want to pay for that, which is fine, you can just use LinkedIn for its true innate capabilities, which was originally for networking in the business world.

    Many of us have a ton of LinkedIn friends, and if you’re like me, don’t do anything with them. So, [00:19:00] look at your friend list and pick out all the psychologists and comb through and see who’s in a training facility. And you can just put the word out, especially if there’s anyone in your area. This can be a great place to just spread the word that you are looking for a technician and see what pops up.

    Now, the other bonus area that I wanted to encourage you to look at is what I would call adjacent skill areas. The obvious one in our case, I think is looking for school psychologists who might be part-time but want to do some private practice work. School psychologists have a ton of experience administering and scoring tests. They may be looking for something extra on top of the school district, maybe. So don’t be afraid to reach out to school psychologists in your area.

    The other adjacent skill areas you might think about are fields or positions that [00:20:00] share a similar skill set. I think about research assistance, for example, in a psychological lab or really a research lab at a university. So, these are individuals who are hopefully familiar with the process of following directions, paying attention to detail, and synthesizing information. So don’t be afraid. If you’re willing to take on some extra training, this will be a great place to look.

    Other folks that could be good are those who are doing data entry. The skills involved in data entry, I think are very transferable. The only piece that you would want to be aware of is the interpersonal component, perhaps. And I think there’s more relationship building in being a psychometrist than maybe a data [00:21:00] entry person. But if the interpersonal skills are in place, then you could be off to the races.

    Data entry requires a ton of attention to detail and again, paying attention to numbers, following directions, and manipulating information. I think these are all skills that can be transferrable to being a psychometrist, again, if you’re willing to do more training once the person comes on board.

    Okay. So those are several places that you can look for a psychometrist. And once you find that person, really what a psychometrist does is, meets with the client, administer some or all of the tests that you’re giving as part of your battery. Typically, the psychometrist will score the tests and then transfer those scores into a template or a set of [00:22:00] tables and what have you.

    So there are plenty of folks out there who can do a great job, and hopefully, with some of these areas, you can expand your search a bit and really bring on someone to help in your practice.

    Now, I said I was going to talk to us a little bit about vetting a psychometrist. I’ve done prior episodes on this topic, so I’m not going to go into the details here exactly. But a few things you want to think about, one, Interpersonal skills are huge. So you want to make sure not to rush into this. You want to meet with the person several times and just get a sense of their skills at relationship building and then connecting with others.

    I think you also want to get a report sample. If this is someone who has been doing the work for a bit of time and has some assessment [00:23:00] experience, you definitely want to get an idea of what their reports look like. So don’t be afraid to have them turn in a de-identified or modified report so that you can look at their work sample.

    If you have the time and the energy, I would highly suggest doing a bit of a “working interview” where you can pay them for this time, of course, but they come in and you observe them while they are administering and scoring some of the tests. This is a common model in medical practices and dental practices when they’re hiring hygienists and assistants. And I think it can work for us as well if you are willing to invest that time. So this is typically, I would say the, you know, toward the latter stages of hiring where you really like someone, you just want to see how they do and you can bring them in for a working interview.

    And then the last piece is, [00:24:00] as with anyone you’re going to hire, please take the time to check their references. The times when I have not done so well with hiring, maybe I made poor choices in hiring for our practice, this was one of the main components was not checking references. And who knows. I mean, the references may have been fantastic, but I do know that a common thread in, again, poor hiring choices was not checking references.

    So when you do check references, make sure to ask about time management, attention to detail, and again, relationship building. Some of you, depending on what you’re going to have the psychometrist do, may want to ask about writing skills, but for me, time management and attention to detail are more important than actual writing skills because our psychometrists don’t do much writing. [00:25:00] And then, of course, relationship building and rapport, I think are really important components for anyone who’s going to be client-facing.

    All right. So, there’s your whirlwind tour of finding a psychometrist, why you might want to do that, and how you might vet that individual. If you’re interested in this topic, like I said, there are prior podcasts that I will link to in the show notes that cover psychometrists a little bit more closely. I hope that this has been inspiring for some of you to really think about expanding your practice. It is totally doable. If you can put in the time to do the training, I think you will be greatly rewarded with both time and money and hopefully, satisfaction as you watch your practice grow and you get to do some training as well.

    All right, y’all, thanks for listening as always. Like I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, you can check the show notes [00:26:00] for a link to register for the webinar that I’m co-hosting this coming Thursday, next Thursday, rather with Dr. Ryan Matchullis and the folks in Canada. There are CE credits available here. So, check that out for sure.

    And like I said, if you are an advanced practice owner who’s looking to take your practice to the next level in some way, that might be hiring or hiring again, streamlining your systems, nailing down your schedule, freeing up time, additional streams of income, any of those pieces that go beyond basic levels of practice, there’s a group for you. There.s a group coaching experience. I am the facilitator. And you would be with a group of other psychologists right at your stage of practice who are looking to level up as well. So you can find out more about that at thetestingpsychologist.com/advanced. That group will be starting [00:27:00] in September. So reach out if you’d like and schedule a pre-group call. Hope to see you there.

    Okay, y’all, take care in the meantime. I hope you’re hanging in there. School is starting. That means lots of different things for different folks around the country. So, I hope you are all well and taking care of yourselves and your families. I will talk to you next time.

    The information contained in this podcast and on The Testing Psychologists website is intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for professional, psychological, psychiatric, or medical advice, [00:28:00] diagnosis or treatment. Please note that no doctor-patient relationship is formed here, and similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host or guests of this podcast and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of any mental health practitioner or medical provider, please seek one in your area. Similarly, if you need supervision on clinical matters, please find a supervisor with expertise that fits your needs.

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  • 135: Cultural Identity and the Testing Process w/ Dr. Bridget Rivera

    135: Cultural Identity and the Testing Process w/ Dr. Bridget Rivera

    Would you rather read the transcript? Click here.

    Dr. Bridget Rivera has had cultural identity on her radar since she was a child and saw her father deported from the US. She’s here for a conversation about cultural identity, for both the clinician and the client, and how it shows up throughout the testing process. Here are just a few things that we get into:

    • Defining cultural identity and cultural humility for people of color and phenotypically white individuals
    • Ways to set up your office to be culturally considerate
    • Questions to ask in the intake to take culture into account
    • Examples of considering culture while interpreting test data
    • Tailoring recommendations through a lens of culture

    Cool Things Mentioned

    CE Opportunity – Webinar on Remote Assessment!

    I’m speaking alongside Dr. Ryan Matchullis in a webinar titled, “Psychological Assessment of Children During COVID-19: The Nuts & Bolts.” This event is co-sponsored by Build Great Teams and the Psychologists’ Association of Alberta. Register here: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/psychological-assessment-of-children-during-covid-19-the-nuts-and-bolts-registration-109549260788. Hope to see you there! 

    The Testing Psychologist podcast is approved for CEU’s!

    I’ve partnered with At Health to offer CE credits for podcast episodes! Visit this link to access current and past episodes available for CE credit. You can use code “TTP10” for a discount on ALL the course credits you purchase from At Health!

    About Dr. Bridget Rivera

    Dr. Bridget Rivera is a licensed psychologist, Florida Qualified Supervisor, and holds the MAC (Master Addiction Counselor) credential. She conducts psychological assessment and provides consultation and coaching in the area of cultural humility. She began conducting diversity trainings about 15 years ago at a college counseling center in Maryland. University faculty, staff, and administrators began to request consultation and training in the area of cultural competence and cultural humility, which led to the development of her consultation practice known as Authentic Diversity Training. She has since trained and consulted for both small and large organizations in the public and private sectors, including the VA, NSA, college campuses, and private organizations. Dr. Rivera has multiple peer-reviewed publications and presentations in the area of psychological assessment, eating disorders, and cultural competence. She was awarded the Martin Mayman award from the Society for Personality Assessment in 2010 for distinguished contribution to the literature.

    About Dr. Jeremy Sharp

    I’m a licensed psychologist and Clinical Director at the Colorado Center for Assessment & Counseling, a private practice that I founded in 2009 and have grown to a staff of 20 amazing individuals. I earned my undergraduate degree in Experimental Psychology from the University of South Carolina before getting my Master’s and PhD in Counseling Psychology from Colorado State University. These days, I specialize in psychological and neuropsychological evaluation with kids and adolescents.

    As the host of the Testing Psychologist Podcast, I provide private practice consulting for psychologists and other mental health professionals who want to start or grow psychological testing services in their practices. I live in Fort Collins, Colorado with my wife (also a therapist) and two young kids.

    Ready to grow your testing services? Click below to schedule a complimentary 30-minute pre-consulting call!

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  • 135 Transcript

    [00:00:00] Dr. Sharp: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Testing Psychologist podcast. The podcast where we talk all about the business and practice of psychological and neuropsychological assessment. I’m your host, Dr. Jeremy Sharp, licensed psychologist, group practice owner, and private practice coach.

    All right, y’all. Here we are back with a clinical interview today. I am excited about this episode, y’all. Dr. Bridget Rivera is talking all about clinician identity, cultural, ethnic, socioeconomic, and so forth, and how clinician identity comes into play throughout the assessment process. We’re going to walk through the assessment process from the beginning, talking about a number of ways that identity comes into play and how we might tweak our work accordingly.

    Let me tell you a little bit about Bridget. She is a licensed psychologist and a Florida-qualified supervisor. She holds the Master Addiction Counselor credential. She conducts psychological [00:01:00] assessments and provides consultation and coaching in the area of cultural humility.

    Bridget began conducting diversity training about 15 years ago at a college counseling center in Maryland. University faculty, staff, and administrators started to request her consultation and training in the area of cultural competence and cultural humility, which led to the development of her consultation practice known as Authentic Diversity Training. She has since trained and consulted for both small and large organizations in the public and private sectors, including the VA, NSA, college campuses, and private organizations.

    Bridget has multiple peer-reviewed publications and presentations in the area of psychological assessment, eating disorders, and cultural competence.  She was awarded the Martin Mayman Award from the Society for Personality Assessment in 2010 for her distinguished contribution to the literature. I am so fortunate to have her here, and I think you’re going to take a lot away from this episode.

    Before we get [00:02:00] to our conversation, I want to quickly mention my webinar, which is coming up in just two weeks. I’m going to be working with Build Great Teams and the Psychologists Association of Alberta to co-present alongside Ryan Matulis in a webinar titled Psychological Assessment of Children During COVID-19: The Nuts & Bolts. You can register using the link in the show notes. I know some of you may have heard me present on this over the course of the summer. I’ve done a number of these presentations, but I’m excited to hear Ryan’s component, which will focus heavily on working specifically with challenging and developmentally delayed kids. You don’t want to miss this one. Again, go check it out. Link in the show notes, and we hope to see you there.

    All right. On to my conversation with Dr. Bridget Rivera.

    [00:03:13] Hey y’all. Welcome back to the Testing Psychologist podcast. I’m glad to have you here today, and I’m really glad to have my guest, Dr. Bridget Rivera here to talk with me about what we bring to the room and just being aware of our own identities, the identities of our clients and how those may intersect throughout the assessment process.

    Bridget, welcome to the podcast.

    Dr. Rivera: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

    Dr. Sharp: Yes. Thank you. You reached out to me, at the time, it was right amidst everything going on after George Floyd’s murder and the protests and everyone is talking about [00:04:00] racism and anti-racism. As part of that discussion, you graciously reached out and volunteered to come chat with me. So, I’m grateful for your time. Welcome.

    Dr. Rivera: Thank you. This is important work and it’s hard to engage in. So I’m really happy to be here to talk to you about this.

    Dr. Sharp: Sure. That tees it up nicely, I think for the first common intro question, which is why is this important to you?

    Dr. Rivera: This is important to me personally because people are often surprised to hear that I am an immigrant to this country. I was born and raised in the UK. I immigrated to the United States when I was 16 and very much remember the process of going through immigration, carrying a green card, and the struggles my parents went through, even though we were white and spoke English.

     [00:05:00] I remember those difficulties. My father was deported when I was younger, prior to 16, prior to immigration. I remember what that looked like; people, just like in the movies, showing up at the house in their very nice suits and carding him off.

    Cultural competence, then relations around multiculturalism in this country is important to me. I grew up, became a psychologist, and married somebody who is Hispanic. So these are conversations that we have a lot at home and just our journey through being married to somebody who is not white and what that has meant for us and what [00:06:00] it means for our kids and how we engage in this work.

    Dr. Sharp: Sure. I feel like I have to ask, that seems like a powerful experience to see your dad deported. Was it?

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah. I was 10 at the time. We were told to go upstairs; my sister and I were told to go upstairs and then we came back down and he was gone. I do remember the immigration officers being in the living room and that prompted the immigration process. Our green cards had expired. That’s what happened. That prompted the journey to become permanent residents. It wasn’t until I was actually in grad school [00:07:00] that I became a citizen. And those were for other reasons that I needed to do that for myself. So I carried a green card for many years in this country. I have no idea what it’s like for somebody who does not speak English, somebody who’s not white, but I can certainly speak to my own experience, but that’s personally why it’s important to me.

    Dr. Sharp: Of course.

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah.

    Dr. Sharp: I appreciate you sharing that. 

    Dr. Rivera: Sure.

    Dr. Sharp: And it’s coming up right away. I like that you acknowledge that you are phenotypically white, and to know that that’s just a good overlay for our whole conversation, I think, because there are things you may not know about people just from looking at them.

    Dr. Rivera: That’s right. That’s exactly it. People often make assumptions based on when we see each other, when we hear each other, how we speak. [00:08:00] I think we have to be incredibly intentional to ask those questions because we don’t know what’s lying beyond those quick assumptions we’re making based on what we see.

    Dr. Sharp: Right. I think that’s a great segue to jump into our topic here. We were talking about framing this conversation in terms of clinician identity and what we bring to the assessment process. My hope is that we’ll walk through the assessment process and talk through each of those components and how these things may show up. Could you maybe lay a little groundwork? Even when I say what we bring to the assessment process, what does that even mean?

    Dr. Rivera: I think earlier on in training, depending upon when we were trained or early on in the field of [00:09:00] psychology, we were taught that multicultural counseling or multicultural assessment meant that when we are working with somebody who doesn’t look like us, or when we’re working with somebody who is a minority, we need to meet a set of standards to somehow illustrate that we’re competent.

    Two things have happened over the last decade. We know now that everybody’s multicultural, going back to regardless of what we look like. And that is because all people are multicultural including white people. White people are often incredibly surprised to hear, Hey, I have a culture. There’s something meaningful to being white. Absolutely.

    We now know that in addition, or perhaps in some cases as an alternative to being culturally competent, we need to [00:10:00] have some humility and this concept of cultural humility has emerged in the literature. So now the goal is to understand what am I bringing to the room and how my identity or my identities inform my assessment practice and what I’m bringing into the room when I’m doing testing. That includes those nuances, things that are maybe unique to what we’re bringing, to what the client’s bringing to the room. So we can think about how am I informing this process, even before we meet the client. So we want to take into account the fluid nature of culture and the challenges that we face to address maybe some inequalities that our clients may be struggling with. So we’re thinking about cultural humility as a way [00:11:00] to understand that I may not know either. I may not know what the client’s going through and ask them to be the expert for us.

    First and foremost, even recognizing who am I as a psychologist and what identities am I bringing to the room so I can engage in this process of cultural humility,

    Dr. Sharp: Right. You said two things there I wanted to pull out. One is, you said even white people have culture. What do you mean?

    Dr. Rivera: I think about identity dimensions as being multi-faceted and how they overlap. So a couple of things there. Think about ourselves and our clients as holding race, ethnicity, sexual identity, religion, spirituality, socioeconomic [00:12:00] status, class, gender identity, disability or ability, and age.

    Race-One thing we know it’s socially constructed, right? The science is very clear that there are no biological differences in race. Race is socially constructed. However, it’s still really super meaningful. So we do want clients to be able to talk about that, including perhaps our white clients. There’s no biological basis for race. We know that there’s no gene or cluster. There are no genes common to any particular race. This is a human-invented classification system as a way to define those physical differences, but we know that it’s not biologically real.

    [00:13:00] People grapple with that, that this is a socially constructed phenomenon. People say, and they’ve said to me, that I can see race. I can see that you’re white. I can see that she’s Asian. I can see that he’s black. So it’s difficult, right? This is something difficult for people to realize, but we know that there’s no biological basis.

    Marriage is socially constructed. However, marriage has very serious legal, cultural, and interpersonal implications. The same is true for race. I encourage my white counterparts to explore what it means for them to be white. What does this mean to you? And I think that’s really hard work for white people to engage in because then we begin to feel guilty that we’re white, right? That means that we’re carrying some [00:14:00] power, some privilege. There’s been a lot written about that.

    Peggy McIntosh wrote The Invisible Knapsack. What I’m carrying around as a white person, I now have this Bag or backpack of passports that have been handed to me simply because I’m white. So let’s talk about that with our colleagues. Let’s engage in that conversation.

    And then ethnicity, which oftentimes white people, and I think especially at least Americans that I’ve spoken to have a hard time even defining what is my ethnicity. I hear sometimes people say I’m Heinz 57. I’m everything. My grandparents are 50% this, 40% this, and 10% this and we’re not sure. There’s a story behind that. Where did that come from? How did your grandparents get to America? What did they have to [00:15:00] give up to get here? And what does that mean for your family? What does that mean in terms of traditions or lost traditions or how we relate to one another, how we celebrate, how we cook? All of that is incredibly informative.

    The other piece is how these identity dimensions we’ve only talked about two, race and ethnicity, how do they intersect or not intersect. Which ones are most powerful in terms of how I view the world? Does my sexual identity interact with my racial identity or my ethnic identity? Does my religion and spirituality interact with any of these? So these identity dimensions do not carry equal weight. They do not carry equal power. It’s not like we can [00:16:00] compartmentalize them like pieces of pie that hopefully we cut out equally when we serve pie. One may be much larger. One may be much smaller. So typically, this isn’t always the case, but typically, those identity dimensions where we’re not holding power and privilege tend to hold more weight in how we see the world.

    A black client may say, my race is holding 75% of my identity. That piece of my identity is incredibly informative, maybe not so much as my sexual identity. So where we’re holding power and privilege, they tend to feel smaller and less informative in how we view the world, because that’s where we are metaphorically invisible.

    [00:17:00] I like to talk to mental health professionals about visualizing what those identity dimensions look like. If we were to draw them, what would the picture say? Which identity dimensions would overlap? Which ones might be off the page? Which ones might hold a lot of space on the page? Let’s think about what that means then for your work with your client.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I like the way that you phrase that. As a visual person, I think the pie makes a lot of sense. I think that’s a process that all of us need to go through explicitly at many points in our lives because they shift over time.

    Dr. Rivera: Absolutely. 

    Dr. Sharp: That piece of how it comes into play with our clients is really important. That’s a big theme of what we’re talking about. [00:18:00] I wonder if we might start from the top of our assessment process and have some discussion around how these identities influence each component of the assessment process. Starting from the very beginning with our intakes, what are some things that we may need to be aware of as we are conducting those?

    Dr. Rivera: I think being very intentional about first asking clients these questions, even though they make us uncomfortable. We tend to stray from things that make us uncomfortable. So it’s learning how to tolerate these uncomfortable questions. First and foremost, thinking about what questions am I asking now pre this discussion and what might I need to add to those interview questions. Is there something that’s making me [00:19:00] a little more uncomfortable than others?

    So how we greet clients, how clients greet us, how we advertise or don’t, how we format our reports, how we’re understanding testing. All of that is informed not only by our training but also who we are and our worldview. So those identity dimensions are going to inform our worldview. Thinking about what am I doing now, what do I need to do a little bit of rub, and probably where we’re feeling that rub? Probably where we’re feeling that rub or that friction is probably where some shift might be needed. And it’s usually about engaging clients in these conversations at intake. So the cultural background of the psychologist or the supervisor or the student is going to be [00:20:00] a pretty pervasive influence for a really strong argument to continue to examine our own cultural and racial identity. This should be part and parcel of the professional psychology preparation. I don’t think it always is.

    Dr. Sharp: Oh yeah, I can guarantee. It’s not always part of that preparation. You said some of these questions we might need to be aware of things that we would ask about. I know you do a lot of supervising and training, right? So what are some things that you see are some of those common avoidance points or questions that we don’t ask that we probably should be asking during intake?

    Dr. Rivera: There’s some written work on this by Richard Dana. He’s done a lot of work on this. The other piece that I think, and I would guarantee everybody takes a look at if you haven’t is the cultural formulation interview. [00:21:00] It’s in the appendix in the DSM. Everybody should have access to that, hopefully. There are 16 questions there which address four domains. So we want to think about the cultural definition of the problem and the cultural perception of cause, context of the problem, how the client is getting support, and any cultural factors, again, even if your client’s white, that might be affecting coping skills or past help-seeking, think about acculturation, again, even if your client is white. Don’t make the assumptions that people may think, Bridget is American. It’s not until somebody asks or I share, oh, wow, oh, I didn’t know that, and so how does that inform how I’m walking around In the world? So think about [00:22:00] acculturation.

    The other important pieces to consider are around asking clients very intentionally about those identity dimensions. So asking about religion and spirituality, asking about faith. So ask clients, do you subscribe to any religious beliefs? And what does that look like for them? Because that might have huge implications for the recommendations in a report or huge implications for symptoms.

    I just tested a guy who identified as white. Some things came up a little problematic in some testing and it wasn’t until post-testing that we were digging a little deeper into his ethnic background he shared that both parents are Muslim and this was part of the reason why he was [00:23:00] engaging in some behaviors that were a little problematic. We had a really meaningful conversation about his religious beliefs, his ethnic background, and it was just, again, another headline for me of how important it is not to make assumptions based on what people look like. So ask.

    Gender identity, I think we often assume that somebody might be heterosexual based on they look like the average person walking around. So always ask that question about gender identity.

    Race. We can engage in those conversations. We can talk to clients about how do you identify and what does that mean to you? I usually preface those questions with, this may not seem [00:24:00] connected to why you’re here on the surface, but it’s really helpful for me to have a full understanding of who you are.

    Sexual identity and practices; to be incorporating those into our intake interview, asking about a disability and ability, which may not, again, seem super obvious, clients may not share unless we ask, because they may not think it’s important.

    And then to be thinking about how to power and privilege inform these identity dimensions. So where are we and clients holding both power and privilege or not? And how does that inform not only the testing data but also recommendations in terms of what we could do for that very important section of the report?

    Dr. Sharp: That’s such a good [00:25:00] point. Two questions with all of that, just very practically, are you asking about all of these dimensions of identity on your demographic form or just in the spoken intake conversation or both or what?

    Dr. Rivera: Both. Some of it is on my demographic form and then I use that when I’m meeting with people face to face. Some of it may not come out in that order. I may have to go back to it, or I may have to seek some clarification. And again, some of this comes down to, I think we’re trained and probably the message is, as testing psychologists, we need to be incredibly objective and be a “blank slate”. And I would argue against that. Rather than trying to be super objective, which I think it’s [00:26:00] impossible, as human beings, we are not objective at all. So recognizing what am I bringing to the room and how am I asking these questions and sometimes even making that piece of the conversation intentional and transparent with the clients.

    This guy that I was just talking about, I did say to him, what’s it like having this conversation with me a woman, because he was struggling with some sexual behavior things that probably felt very shameful and guilty to him. So I needed to ask, especially given his upbringing, what it was like for him to have that conversation with me.

    Dr. Sharp: Right. So just making it explicit that even talking about it could be uncomfortable.

    Dr. Rivera: Right. And that adds [00:27:00] to the data. That’s very different than somebody who says, I have no problem talking about this and they’re taking maybe some pride in making us uncomfortable.

    Dr. Sharp: That’s a good point. I was also curious about the elements of power and privilege and whether you ask about those explicitly or that’s something you’re intuiting somehow. How does that get brought into it?

    Dr. Rivera: There’s a lot of literature on targets and agents and these are bi-directional. There’s no continuum for targets and agents where we are holding agent status. In those identity dimensions, we hold some power. Where there are identity [00:28:00] dimensions, where we’re classified as targets, that’s where there’s going to be much less power, and especially white clinicians have a hard time admitting and owning, you know what, I’m holding a lot of identity dimensions where I’m considered the agent and what that means. That means I’m holding a lot of power, a lot of privilege, very different than a person of color.

    I don’t typically ask on an intake about power and privilege. That is something that I’m gathering based on how somebody has described those identity dimensions to me. For example, as a white woman, I’m holding a fair amount of power and privilege with the exception of gender. We know that women are [00:29:00] typically going to hold and do in most cases, hold less power than their male counterparts. So that’s only one identity dimension where I’m falling into that target category. But race it’s typically, and is white, is agent, lots of power there, speaking in the United States, religion, anything that’s considered Christian or somewhere in that faith, again, lot of power because that’s ‘the norm’. Sexual identity, heterosexual, again, lots of power there, that’s the agent category. Gender identity, that’s where males are going to fall into that agent’s category, a lot of power.

    Socioeconomic status. This is something that promotes tons and tons of conversation and disagreements. [00:30:00] But typically because people, I think the statistic is around 80% of people in the United States will classify themselves as middle class. We all know that there’s a pretty wide middle class, but everybody wants and will identify as middle class. And that’s the identity dimension where we’re going to see agents and power there as opposed to somebody who’s going to be considered working class or lower class.

    To get back to your question, I don’t ask about power and privilege unless it’s going to come up, but based on those identity dimensions, I can usually get a sense of how we’re functioning in the United States and what that means.

    Dr. Sharp: I see. That makes sense to me. Knowing that there, I’m sure there are some cases where others, there are some differences in how people perceive themselves and their power and so forth, but [00:31:00] those are a number quality dimensions to be thinking along.

    Dr. Rivera: Right. When we engage in this workaround cultural humility and cultural competence, that’s the work. Thinking about where am I holding power and privilege, what does this mean for me, and what does this mean for my work with clients, and being able to get down in the dirt and explore what this means. That’s the work. And that’s where people… That’s the discomfort.

    Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. I think as humans, not to spend too far out into the philosophy of all this, but as humans, we like to have things make sense, classify things and people, and have rules and heuristics. With something like this, it’s hard to do that. All these intersecting identities are a very [00:32:00] complex calculus to try and figure out how it manifests for each person.

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah. It’s not easy.

    Dr. Sharp: Right, but that’s why we’re having these conversations bringing it to mind and breaking those those shortcuts in our brain that we’d like to make.

    Before we move to the testing process and how identity might show up there, I am curious if you had thoughts on… You mentioned greeting the client or how our space is set up for clients. Are there any pieces you wanted to highlight there in terms of what we bring or what we need to be aware of?

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah, I think again, what are we doing currently and what does that say about us? Questions to ask. Are we being inclusive to everybody? What magazines do we have in our waiting room or lobby or therapy [00:33:00] room? What messages does that send to clients? How I greet a client. So that has incredible cultural implications, right?

    I was just speaking with somebody yesterday, a colleague, and she said somebody kept calling her ma’am. It was making her uncomfortable. And then it wasn’t until she realized, oh, that’s because of his military background and military family. That’s how he was raised. Some people are going, do they call a doctor or not? Do we require that, ask that, or recommend that? Are we okay with the first name? So there’s going to be cultural implications around that and assumptions we might make about that. What does our space visually look like? All of those sorts of things to wonder about.

    Dr. Sharp: Absolutely.

    Dr. Rivera: There’s no [00:34:00] magic formula. Your waiting room should not look a certain way. There’s no magic things that we need to put in or not put in, but let’s just at least reflect on this. And then based on who we’re working with, who we want to work with, or what our community represents, what can we do to be inclusive and welcoming and what might we need to tweak a little bit?

    Dr. Sharp: Right. That example that you brought up of the magazines, I think, is a very simple, but very poignant one. And that if you look through the, just look through the magazines that are hanging out in your waiting area, and that was a real wake-up call for us probably 2 or 3 years ago when we did that. And then from there made the decision to include much more diverse magazine content and it’s made a huge difference.

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah. Those are very small things that [00:35:00] clients talk about that make a very big difference that we may not realize.

    Dr. Sharp: Sure. I will say this, there was a big, a lot of us get that magazine Psychology Today for registered psychologists. There was a big discussion a year or two ago about what percentage of their cover models were white versus people of color. 

    Dr. Rivera: I remember that.

    Dr. Sharp: Anyway, that’s all I’ll say about that, but Magazines are important.

    Dr. Rivera: Right.

    Dr. Sharp: Let’s talk about the testing process. This is a big area. Just to give us some boundaries here, I suppose, I’m curious more about the process of testing versus the tests themselves, if that makes sense. Maybe we stick with the process and how these identities may show up as we’re testing.

    [00:36:00] Dr. Rivera: Definitely, we want to think about that referral question, right? The referral question is going to tell us what tests we need to give. And so we’re not going to touch that. We need to think beyond that, how are we going to interpret the data based on the uniqueness of the person that we’re working with?

    Being culturally competent when we’re doing testing requires that solid foundation in the traditional assessment theory methods. And that’s why we’re not going to touch that. That’s a whole other conversation. So we need to specify and then test when we’re looking at the data, what about the social and cultural world matters and what about that matters to this client to avoid making inferences based on [00:37:00] any group labels associated, most commonly it’s going to be with ethnicity or race. So we need to hold and maintain and be able to tolerate that healthy tension between behavior that’s culture-specific and culture-general as we’re looking at the data.

    Students often have conversations, well, it must be all cultural. That’s how we need to understand all of this. Or no, it’s just, and I say just with air quotes there, “This is normative behavior.” We need to be able to balance both of those. So rather than go to a chapter in a textbook on what it means to understand any specific culture, let’s maintain that tension between viewing behavior as culture-specific and culture-general, and then [00:38:00] interpret the test data in that account, not just as one identity dimension. That should be the overlay, if you will, when we’re looking at the data and interpreting it in that context, based on the referral question and the test that we chose to use.

    From there, we can observe the behavior during the test administration; what does this mean for this client and who they are? What might that mean for them and all of those different identity dimensions? And then we can gather cultural information from our client or we could use that cultural formulation interview that’s available in our DSM and ask some of those questions to [00:39:00] help understand the person and his or her unique context, […] the overlay, if you will, or the groundwork for embarking in this process.

    Dr. Sharp: I like that. I wonder if we could bring it to life with an example of some sort. Do you have any top of mind that you could talk through and what it means to interpret the data in this way?

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah. I think I shared this with you when we talked previously. The case that is always in my mind is when I was on internship many years ago, without dating myself too much, in a state hospital and a young woman came in exhibiting pretty strong symptoms of psychosis. She was hallucinating [00:40:00] and talking about voices that she was hearing. She was in her early 20s and was diagnosed at the time with a psychotic disorder. They started her on medication.

    It wasn’t until somebody said, I think we need to do testing on her. Something is not quite right. The data came back pretty psychotic, pretty symptomatic of everything in line with schizophrenia, and it wasn’t until we were giving her feedback and her family feedback, it was a family member who said, and this was a Hispanic woman, it wasn’t until they said, “Her uncle just died and we’ve been practicing these religious beliefs and [00:41:00] practices around chanting and saying goodbye to this uncle. They’d been engaging in this for many days that her symptoms were likely representative of this religious practice. And she was seeing her dead uncle.

    When the hospital weaned her off this medication, she came back to reality pretty shortly thereafter and we were able to dig much deeper into this religious practice that the family was engaging in, what this meant for her, and how she was incredibly bereaved missing this uncle that was very close to her. And so when we looked back at the data in that context, it made much more [00:42:00] sense and helped us understand what was going on for her. But I think about what could have happened had we not had that conversation. This diagnosis would have followed her and she was on anti-psychotic medication. So I encourage people to think about what this might look like for somebody based on what’s happening in their life at the current time.

    Dr. Sharp: Of course. That is such a great example. I’m glad you went over that. It’s something that we can totally overlook if we don’t think to ask those specific questions.

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah. I think about the guy that I just met with whose parents are Muslim, again, looking at the data, there were some things that were pretty problematic in terms of his interpersonal relations, and it wasn’t until [00:43:00] he was able to share with me what was happening for him in his life and that made much more sense once I had all of those details, which I would never have been able to gather unless we’d dug in and engaged in this incredibly intentional conversation. And that comes from adding those additional questions; tell me about your religious beliefs, what does that look like every day, how does that inform your relationships, what does that mean for your romantic relationships, and what does that mean for coming here and talking with me, so on and so forth? It’s like peeling the different layers of an onion and getting to the heart of the matter.

    Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. I can see this very easily translating to [00:44:00] assessment of personality or behavior. Can you think of any examples of more cognitive assessment that this would apply to?

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah. So where that comes alive for me is when I’m working with kids and then having to give recommendations or put in the context of behavior to parents because our worldview is everything when it comes to parenting, right? Why do we discipline the way we discipline? Usually, that’s coming from our parents, right? I think the running joke is often, Oh my gosh, I’m becoming my mother, even though we may try not to do that. So we typically discipline and talk to our kids based on worldview, which gets sometimes informed by parents and the generations [00:45:00] that came before us.

    Think about somebody’s worldview and the parents of the kids that you’re working with- their worldview, and what that’s going to mean for how you set up a report, what recommendations you’re going to give, and how you’re going to understand the presenting problem in terms of what does this family look like. That’s everything. That’s everything with worldview. Again, religious practices, socioeconomic status, all of that is housed.

    We may think it’s a learning disability report, I don’t have to consider these questions, but sure you do when it comes down to those recommendations because some parents are going to look at you and say, there’s no way I’m doing that.

    Dr. Sharp: That’s a great point. I think there’s a lot to be said for the report [00:46:00] and recommendations. Before we transition there, are there ways, this is a tricky question or maybe a tricky topic to wade into, but without talking about test construction, validity, and so forth, are there other ways that you may encourage us to consider identity and culture in interpreting neuropsychological data, for example, or the actual scores, and maybe that’s not possible, but I’m trying…

    Dr. Rivera: It gets down to our norms and ensuring that we’re using the right test for the client. Using test data, we want to make sure that cultural information is considered in terms of normative issues and how we interpret [00:47:00] as well as psychopathology. So can we adequately understand the client and his or her culture based on the test that we’re using and the test data? Are we describing any confounds or interactions? Can we include those in the report? What is informed by culture in terms of behavior, which I think is described by neuropsychology when we’re looking at a WISC or a memory test or social class might be informed based on education? I don’t know if that’s getting down into the weeds there a little bit, but are we thinking about all of those pieces? Does that make sense? 

    Dr. Sharp: Sure, it does. And like I said, that’s hard, I think maybe I’m looking for something that’s [00:48:00] not there that we can’t answer that question without really getting into those pieces of test construction, normative data, and so forth, which is totally fine.

    Let’s talk about the report then and recommendations a little bit more explicitly. Right off the bat, thoughts on how these elements come into how we write our report.

    Dr. Rivera: Richard Dana has lots of literature on this. He’s defined what he calls six psychological report ingredients. Before we get to the report, I would recommend using the cultural formulation interview, which is available in the DSM, and then using that to underscore the six [00:49:00] report ingredients.

    The first is looking at the relationship between the client and the examiner and taking that into consideration, maybe in our behavioral observations section. That requires a culture-specific, hopefully, delivery style, again, thinking back to what am I bringing to my relationship with my client and am I engaging in that, and then commenting on that. That can determine adequacy, sufficiency, consistency, hopefully, reliability in terms of the client data, and then describing identity so moving down the report thinking about that demographic section, or did we ask those questions, those really important questions, which may take a little more time, and are we [00:50:00] noting those in the report, and so that includes cultural and racial identity. Again, I want to underscore, even if the client looks like us, and even if the client fits what might be considered mainstream here in the United States. So we have to state Caucasian or Asian or again, however, the client is identifying, including all of those identity dimensions, which will then eventually… Go ahead. Sorry.

    Dr. Sharp: I was just going to ask where you are putting that information in the report. I know people do it in different ways. I’m curious how you do it.

    Dr. Rivera: Sure. I put it in one of those first paragraphs when I’m describing the client. Jane Doe, a white, female, identifies as XYZ. 

    Dr. Sharp: Got you.

    Dr. Rivera: And then I may come [00:51:00] back to that depending upon what I’m writing about.

    Dr. Sharp: Okay.

    Dr. Rivera: And I include religious affiliation, and I may come back to that.

    Dr. Sharp: Okay, I like that. Right at the front.

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah, where we’re describing the clients. I know people set up their reports in different ways and call that paragraph something different, but right there early on because that’s going to inform everything else. I don’t want it to get lost. I want to be very clear that this is going to inform how I’m understanding the person I’m working with.

    Dr. Sharp: Okay. Thanks. 

    Dr. Rivera: We should then obviously inform the tests that we use if they’re culture-relevant and or not, hopefully valid.

    Dr. Sharp: Yes. Good points.

    Dr. Rivera: And then in terms of the test data, I think I’d also be [00:52:00] including some discussion of what that means. So, if there are some issues there with maybe an instrument not being incredibly valid, or what does this mean for the client’s culture? I have been very intentional in addressing that and how I’m using the data.

    Dr. Sharp: I see. I would imagine that that discussion might go in the part of the report where you’re reporting each test result.

    Dr. Rivera: And the validity as well.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I know a lot of people are moving toward a model of not reporting test results in the text of the report. I wonder then, maybe we could list or we could discuss it just under the validity section.

    Dr. Rivera: Absolutely.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah, that makes sense. All right.

    [00:53:00] Dr. Rivera: And that’s one of Richard Dana’s what he calls ingredients that we’ve recognized and described any confounds or interactions that might be informing the data. So we have to use our clinical judgment hat to make those decisions based on those questions that we’ve been very intentional about and dialogue that we’ve had in a robust manner with the client.

    Dr. Sharp: Are there other things in the report that we need to be aware of aside from recommendations, we’ll talk about that. 

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah, I think the other big piece is what the report looks like at the very end, the final product, if you will. When we’re thinking about it, is it meeting standards? How long is it? If it’s going back to a [00:54:00] client, can they understand it? Is it user-friendly? Is it personal or informal? Are we using behavioral language that somebody can understand? The literature is geared now to avoiding jargon, using short descriptive sentences that somebody can understand. Are we using vocabulary that makes sense? Those kinds of things in terms of the final product.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I’ll give a shout-out to Stephanie Nelson, who’s been on this podcast. She has some user-friendly articles on how to make your reports more readable and readability level and things like that.

    Dr. Rivera: Yes. It’s imperative.

    Dr. Sharp: Yes. It’s something that we overlook. 

    Dr. Rivera: It is, and it’s something, hopefully, that I tell students all the time. Is this something you’re going to want your [00:55:00] clients to read? The answer should always be yes. If it’s not something you don’t want them to read, then we’ve got to make a lot of edits. So it’s got to be user-friendly.

    Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. I’ve gotten on the soapbox before on the podcast, so I’ll keep this brief, but I think there’s a lot of evidence out there that we are riding way above the heads of the vast majority of our readers. So to me, this isn’t even a cultural or identity issue. It cuts across. It’s across the board with, of course, so many affected.

    Dr. Rivera: I would argue it’s a cultural issue in terms of how psychologists have been socialized.

    Dr. Sharp: Sure. I can get on board with that. 

    Dr. Rivera: That’s something that we are bringing to the room. So that is very much about how [00:56:00] we’ve been trained to be “scientific, empirical, super smart” because that traditionally represents, again, white invisible, “normal” middle to upper class, highly educated individuals. We’ve just demonstrated that. Again, let’s take a look at how long are our reports. What’s the language we’re using? Does this make sense? What work do I need to do now to change that?

    Dr. Sharp: Such good points. How about the recommendations then?

    Dr. Rivera: Yeah, let’s think about that. When we’re writing those recommendations, first of all, are they realistic for the client?

    Dr. Sharp: Always a good question.

    Dr. Rivera: Is this something [00:57:00] that a family, if you’re working with kids, can get on board with? Is this realistic economically? Is this a resource our client has access to? What recommendations do we need to make to, hopefully, ensure they’re going to connect to those recommendations? Is this a parenting practice that a client can get on board with? So again, going back to all of that conversation we had at intake and everything we’ve learned about the client and putting those recommendations in the unique context of the client.

    I’ve talked to a lot of families who say, I’m not doing medication. I’m not going to meet with a psychiatrist because I don’t believe in medication. So we need to consider that. Are they going to go back and share this with the school? Oftentimes, people don’t want to because [00:58:00] of shame. So let’s think about that. What does that mean then for my client?

    So rather than a cookbook or boilerplate template of recommendations, let’s specify recommendations that are unique and particular to our client.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah, I think that’s so important. I am curious for you, Bridget, how you balance the conflicts that might arise there if “Science” or research goes against the client’s cultural identity. I’ll just give an example to illustrate. For me, this comes up a lot around spanking, let’s say. I grew up in an environment where that was totally normal. [00:59:00] I get it and I think the science is pretty clear that we shouldn’t spank our kids but a lot of families might want to do that. That’s just one example, but there are many others.

    Dr. Rivera: Yes. That’s a great example. I will hold on one hand that that’s culturally acceptable in many cultures. I have to hold that. That’s uncomfortable. I don’t like it. I have to hold that. That’s something that in some cultures is acceptable and the proper way to discipline your children. I have to balance that with now what’s my role here. Do I need to have a conversation with mom and dad or parents about this and share perhaps some science that spanking is ineffective and possibly damaging? [01:00:00] How am I going to still hold very clearly that this is culturally acceptable and imagine for myself what that conversation is going to look like and what’s my job as a psychologist?

    Again, this gets back to those early conversations around reflecting on my own identity and reflecting on what am I bringing to the room and how can I perhaps engage in a conversation; not just necessarily give Mom and Dad a handout on spanking, but let’s talk about this. I may ask Mom and Dad, what’s it like to have this conversation with me? This is what we’re seeing, these are some behaviors, and this is perhaps what I’m recommending [00:01:00] instead. They may come back and say, “You crazy white woman. That’s not what we’re going to do.”

    Dr. Sharp: Sure. And then, what do you say to that?

    Dr. Rivera: I may laugh and say perhaps you’re right. You’re here paying for a service. I’m going to try to give you the best recommendation I possibly can. These are some alternatives. What might that look like for you if you do something different? What might your social support system say? I’ve certainly had people say to me, no way I’m going to try something different because my whole family will shame me. So let’s engage in that conversation. So it is holding both pieces together and not necessarily disregarding something completely, because it’s a [01:02:00] culture “specific behavior.”

    Dr. Sharp: I like how you phrase that. A theme through this conversation, I think, is holding many dimensions and ideas at once. That’s work for a lot of us.

    Dr. Rivera: It’s hard work. Yes. I think the subtext here is we know and the literature has shown us and there have been studies on this, that the ability of mental health professionals, psychologists, students, supervisees, and supervisors to engage in some self-introspection and some reflection about this is incredibly effective and helpful.

    There was a study done a few years back now on microaggression. [01:03:00] It demonstrated that psychologists who were able to be culturally have some humility and demonstrate cultural humility exhibited less microaggressions, which of course are unintentional than their counterparts who are not engaging in this work. But nobody ever said it was easy.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I’m tempted to just ask about resources for that. Is there anything else you would like to say about the report or recommendations though, before we make that transition?

    Dr. Rivera: I think consulting, talking about this stuff. That’s the number one thing, talking about it, consulting about it. It’s not something we can do alone. This is not work that we can do in isolation. This [01:04:00] is not work that we can do in our own office by ourselves. So get a group of people together who are willing to have these conversations.

    So we’ve now moved from this philosophy of it needs to be a ‘safe space.’ We’ve moved from that to this needs to be a brave space. Can we be brave enough to have these conversations? So no longer safe because guess what? This doesn’t feel safe. This is hard and we have to be brave and courageous. So first and foremost, being willing to have the conversations to talk about it, to engage in that ability, to reflect, and then there’s lots and lots of really wonderful literature.

    I think first and foremost, I would recommend anything by Richard Dana, who’s done a ton of work on this and outlines what we need to do as a clinician. He really [01:05:00] talks about this ability to become self-aware, to identify our own biases, to think about perhaps what blind spots we have. It’s impossible to know our blind spots because they’re blind spots. And so that requires doing some hard work. So doing that. And then thinking about what we need to shift in terms of the assessment process. He talks about those six ingredients to the report to ensure that we’re being as competent as possible.

    Janet Helms has done a lot of work on racial identity, and specifically for my white colleagues’ white racial identity. She wrote a fantastic book called A Race Is a Nice Thing to Have: A Guide to Being a White Person or Understanding the White Persons in Your Life. [01:06:00] So racial identity. Just continuing to learn about this. And first and foremost, talking about it with colleagues.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I love that. I think that’s part of the deal here over the last several weeks. I’m not sure when this is going to air. So forgive me if this is dated a little bit, but at least when we’re recording, that’s a huge theme around our country right now and in our field is having these conversations and doing your work and engaging in this process as much as possible.

    Dr. Rivera: And for those of us working with students, being transparent and supervision about this stuff. The supervision dyad has massive [00:07:00] implications for the work with clients. I asked students, how do you know those identity dimensions? What data are those assumptions based on? I asked myself, what assumptions have I made about my supervisee because of his or her identity dimensions?

    I may ask a supervisee, how do you identify? And then I need to think about, they’ve told me about their identity dimension, but what does this mean for them and their work? So engaging in that conversation and asking students, at what point did you notice your client’s identity dimension? What assumptions have you made about those identity dimensions? I asked the supervisees, what assumptions are you making about me? Of course, I’m not going to ask these questions in the very first supervision session. This happens over time slowly as [01:08:00] trust is formed to be essentially thinking about what impact our worldview has on those final conceptualizations or diagnoses.

    Dr. Sharp: There’s a lot to process here and a lot to consider. My hope is that this information is really landed with people and that folks will walk away thinking hard about identity in these different dimensions and how it comes into play in this assessment process, but for ourselves and our clients. I hope so.

    I just want to say, thank you for talking through all of this, being so candid, and giving great examples. I know that you’ve put together a pretty stellar document. To call it a handout seems we’re undercutting [01:09:00] how awesome it is. But we’ll have a document, let’s say in the show notes that has a ton of resources and information that overlaps with what we talked about.

    Dr. Rivera: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

    Dr. Sharp: Anytime Bridget, anytime. Yeah. Thank you.

    Dr. Rivera: Okay.

    Dr. Sharp: Okay. Y’all. Thanks so much for tuning into my episode with Bridget. I hope that you took a lot away from that and enjoyed the episode. I know that I did. She is fantastic and super knowledgeable.

    One more mention for my webinar coming up in two weeks with the Psychologists Association of Alberta and Build Great Teams. You can sign up for that in the show notes.

    If you are an advanced practice owner who’s looking to get some support and some group coaching to take your practice to the next level, either by hiring or hiring again, streamlining your systems, or [00:10:00] building additional streams of income, then I would invite you to check out my Advanced Practice Mastermind, a group that I facilitate with no more than 6 of your peers. And that’s going to be starting in September. So you can go to thetestingpsychologist.com/advanced and sign up for a group screen.

    Okay, y’all. Take care.

    The information contained in this podcast and on The Testing Psychologist website is intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for professional psychological, psychiatric, or medical advice. diagnosis [00:11:00] or treatment.

    Please note that no doctor-patient relationship is formed here, and similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host or guests of this podcast and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of any mental health practitioner or medical provider, please seek one in your area. Similarly, if you need supervision on clinical matters, please find a supervisor with expertise that fits your needs.

    Click here to listen instead!

  • 138 Transcript

    [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Testing Psychologist podcast, the podcast where we talk all about the business and practice of psychological and neuropsychological assessment. I’m your host, Dr. Jeremy Sharp, licensed psychologist, group practice owner, and private practice coach.

    Okay, y’all, I’m glad to be back with you for another business episode. Today’s topic is all about adopting a CEO mindset in your practice. So we’re going to dive deep into things like what is a CEO mindset? What do I even mean when I say that? Why is a CEO mindset important in a practice or a business like ours? How do you learn to employ a CEO mindset? And then I’m going to talk through some concrete examples of CEO mindset behaviors, and how that might show up in your practice.

    So stick around. This is an important topic that has been somewhat [00:01:00] transformational for me over the years. So the hope is that you will take a lot away from this and be able to have some actionable steps after the episode.

    Now, this is right up the alley of things that we talk about in the Advanced Practice Mastermind. The next cohort of the Advanced Practice Mastermind will be starting in September. So that is just 2 to 3 weeks away. And I would love to have any of you advanced practice owners reach out if you’re interested in this group.

    So this is a mastermind group where there will be 5 or 6 psychologists all in the advanced stages of practice supporting one another, holding each other accountable, and really just leveling up their practices together. So, we’ll talk about things like delegating, hiring, streamlining, being more efficient in your work, how to stop trading time for money, [00:02:00] possibly passive income streams or additional income streams. All of these things have come up in the past cohorts of the group. We do have two spots left. I would love it if you reach out for a pre-group call. I have not sent the announcement out to my email list yet, still just advertising here on the podcast. So, I imagine when I start sending those emails here in a week or so, it will fill up quickly, but for now, jump on to thetestingpsychologists.com/advanced and you can schedule a pre-group call there to see if it’s a good fit.

    Okay, let’s jump in to this episode and talk all about the CEO Mindset.

    [00:03:00] All right, y’all, here we are talking all about a CEO mindset in your testing practice.  Let’s dive right into it. Like I said in the introduction, making this transition from a clinician or a practitioner to thinking more like a business owner, and even more specifically like a CEO, has been transformational in my business growth.

    Let me tell you a little bit about what I even mean by CEO mindset. First of all, as I jump into this, I’m even aware of a little self-consciousness. Using the term CEO mindset feels like there’s a bit of imposter syndrome there. I’m certainly not a “CEO.” That’s not my title. And some of you may be experiencing similar things or having similar thoughts as we [00:04:00] jump into it. So, I just want to acknowledge and validate that and give you permission at least for the next 20 minutes to imagine yourself as the CEO of whatever company you’re running. It could be a very small practice. It might even be just you right now. It might be a larger group practice or somewhere in between, but just for the next 20 minutes, I’m giving you permission to envision yourself as the CEO of whatever practice you are running. So hang with me here.

    When I think about a CEO mindset, there’s a lot that is entailed in that term. I’m going to keep it pretty simple. Generally speaking, for me, it’s really all about making the shift from simply being a practitioner who happens to be in business to being a business owner who is also a practitioner.

    [00:05:00] This is a huge mistake I think that that a lot of us innocently stumble into because there’s very little discussion about being a business owner in Graduate school. And for most of us, at least in my experience, we don’t talk about being a business owner. We don’t talk about how to own a business. There may be some talk of going into private practice. There’s usually very little talk about money and how to make it or manage it or talk about it or think about it. And there is certainly nothing on hiring, managing people, knowing your finances, balancing the books, strategizing, visioning for a business.

    So when I say CEO mindset, I just mean making that shift to include in your [00:06:00] professional identity the idea that you are truly a business owner and an architect of your practice. No one else was going to do it. That is on you. So, making that shift from, again, just a practitioner who happens to be in private practice running a business to at least an equal amount of identity as a business owner who is also a practitioner.

    You can look around. There are several definitions of CEO mindset, but I’ll just keep it very, very general for now and say, we’re really just talking about the thoughts, beliefs, and behaviors that most CEOs would employ as they run their businesses. So, when you think about a CEO mindset, you think about larger companies, but the mindset I think is very important no matter what size business you’re running.

    [00:07:00] Now, why is this important? That is a fantastic question. You might be listening and saying, Jeremy, I don’t really care about what you’re talking about. I’m just running my little practice and it’s going fine. I don’t need to incorporate any of these things. That is totally okay if you are content with your practice plateauing or staying right where it’s at. If you have no inclination to iterate or improve or evolve or really change it in any way, that might be just fine.

    So if that is the place that you’re in, my hope is that that that means your content and things are going exactly as you would like them to. So, you may not need to employ a CEO mindset. [00:08:00] However, I would guess that if you’ve gotten to the place where you’re completely content and feel like your practice doesn’t need to change, you’ve already done some of these things that I’m going to talk about or you wouldn’t have gotten there.

    So, why is it important?  If you are one of those individuals who value growth in any form or fashion, it may not be hiring or having a larger practice, but just growing or evolving or iterating, any of those things, then a CEO mindset can be very important. Otherwise, if you are not employing some of these strategies and behaviors, it’s my belief that your practice will either stagnate or plateau or even start to fail.

    There are plenty of statistics out there about many businesses will fail within the [00:09:00] first 1 to 3 years, most will fail within 5 years, and I think the number even climbs to like 70% after 10 years in terms of how many private businesses will fail in that time.

    I’m not trying to be a doomsday advocate or anything like that, but I just want to highlight how important it can be to really think of yourself as a business owner. And again, that architect role, and your practice as a business that you have to tend and nurture and work on for it to not just stay the same but to grow and to not fail.

    So the other things that I found in my experience were, when I did not think of myself again, as the director of this business, [00:10:00] I was much more burned out. I mean, I was completely burned out. I’m not sure if there are levels to burn out, but I was pretty burned out because if you’re in that role, you’re often trying to do everything for everyone, taking care of all the tasks in your business, you’re doing all of the visionings if you’re doing any at all, everything lives in your mind. Nobody knows what that information is or what to do with it. And you’re likely spending your time on activities that don’t fall in your primary skillset.

    So, when you do everything, the likelihood that you’re actually doing what you’re good at and what you love is very low. So, you’re essentially wasting time likely spending time on things that you maybe don’t get paid for. So [00:11:00] there are a lot of advantages to adopting more of a CEO mindset where you really start to think, what am I best at? Where’s my passion. How do I spend my time doing that? And how do I structure my practice so that other people are taking care of the remaining activities in a way that helps the practice continue to evolve?

    So, again, it’s important just because you want to keep your practice moving forward, you don’t want it to stagnate, you definitely don’t want it to fail and you don’t want to end up like a crazy person who ends up going out of private practice because you’re so burned out.

    Hopefully, by this time you might be thinking, okay, this sounds great. I want to do this and I’m not sure how, and that’s totally okay. Again, this is a foreign concept.

    I want to talk [00:12:00] through a few ways of learning how to employ a CEO mindset. The thing that I would absolutely recommend that you prioritize and find a way to do is to get some coaching from someone else who has made that leap. Now, this could be someone within our industry, another private practice owner, it could be someone outside of our industry.

    There are plenty of business coaches out there who can help you do this. There are business coaches who specialize in stay-at-home moms who are trying to run their business from home. Now, I don’t know how many practitioners are going to be stay-at-home moms as well, but you get the idea. There are folks who specialize in like high-achieving moms or single [00:13:00] parents or trying to get your business to seven figures or businesses with owners of color. There are all kinds of business coaches out there. So, finding the person who fits best for you is super important.

    In my experience, I’ve had great coaches here within our industry who know the mental health side of things as well as coaches and mastermind group experiences outside of our industry. Some of the most valuable advice I’ve gotten has come from folks who are not in the mental health world.

    So that’s the first strategy is seriously consider some coaching to have someone who can walk you through these strategies and really hold you accountable. I think that’s a big component of any coaching that you might pursue.

    [00:14:00] Now, another idea is to really dive in and start to read and consume information on this topic. So again, there are so many books out there that address leadership and visioning, and delegation. There there are so many out there. I’ve listed a few of my favorites in the show notes, ones that I personally read that I’ve really enjoyed.

    Just to throw a few out there, I loved Dare to Lead by Brené Brown. I loved a book called Radical Candor which is all about your leadership style and how you communicate with your employees. For those who may not even have employees, I love the book Insight by Tasha Eurich about self-awareness and the science of self-awareness and how we are really bad at even judging how self-aware we [00:15:00] are. The Best Place to Work was a good one. Rocket Fuel was a great one talking about the roles in a business, how there is typically you need someone who’s a visionary and then someone who is an implementer. Those two don’t often occur in the same person, at least they don’t occur well or effectively. And let’s see what else. Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink was great.

    So all of these will be in the show notes for those of you who want to get into books. I like to read these books on my Kindle so that I can take notes and highlight them on the Kindle and then export those to a document where I can organize them and go back to them so I don’t forget. That’s my main thing. I’m not one of those individuals who can [00:16:00] remember everything they read or listen to. So, I have to take notes really explicitly. So reading books, a great place to start and continue.

    Another piece related to that is consuming other content. So, podcasts, there are plenty of podcasts out there on leadership and business development, YouTube videos, Ted talks. There’s a ton of content out there. We live in a time when there is absolutely no lack of content. So, I would highly encourage you to go outside our industry a little bit and consume some content from folks who know this stuff better than a lot of our practice owners do.

    Another component is practice. When I say practice, I mean, take this information that you might learn through coaching or reading or listening and actually put [00:17:00] it into play in your business. We’re going to talk about some concrete examples of behaviors you might engage in. But this idea of practice is super important. You can’t just consume content without actually trying it out.

    The way that we do this in our practice or that I do this is by consulting with my admin team. I have an assistant director, we’re creating a training director role and then my billing specialists and admin specialist. We have regular meetings. I’m constantly seeking feedback from them and trying to put these ideas in place as we continue to grow.

    Now, if you don’t have a team like that, that’s totally fine. You can seek feedback from [00:18:00] your family, your partner, even close friends, of course. You can seek feedback from a coach if you’re working with a coach, but you have to put the rubber to the road at some point and start to learn what that’s like and learn what works and what doesn’t work.

    So let’s talk about some actual behaviors that exemplify a CEO mindset and how we might put these things into play.

    The first one that I run across and doing some research for this podcast is that CEOs often have the quality of… Jocko Willink wrote a book called Extreme Ownership, and that really cuts across the information that I found on common CEO [00:19:00] traits. So taking personal responsibility for everything. This means everything in your practice.

    In my mind, if something is going wrong in our practice, my reflexive action is to look at myself and say, where have I not communicated clearly? How have I not trained this person effectively? How did I create this gap in our services? So, turning the mirror back on yourself and immediately thinking, how can I improve this and what did I do to create this situation in the first place. So that could be an unhappy client. It could be an inefficient process. It could be a lack of referrals. It could be anything, but as the business owner, you’re the one that shoulders that burden.

    Another characteristic or behavior that you can put into place is [00:20:00] actually setting aside time to do this deep work or this visioning that is necessary for your practice. There are stories upon stories of CEOs who frankly are not at the office as much as their employees because they have it really dialed it in and they know exactly what they should be doing at the office when they’re there. And more importantly, they are taking time away from the office to engage in self-care, which we’ll talk about, but also to do the visioning work and the deep work that’s really necessary to keep moving the practice forward.

    I talked about this in my episode on planning a retreat and the importance of retreats, which I’ll link to in the show notes. But that is one characteristic that CEOs often employ is they are creating the time to do this deep work that they need to [00:21:00] do.

    Another behavior that I think it’s particularly important in our practices is not to be afraid of measurement and particularly numbers in our practice. So a good CEO owner is going to be tracking the appropriate variables and measuring the key factors in your practice. A few examples of that would be, your referral sources. So, tracking where your referrals are coming from and whether they convert. If you’re an insurance-based practice, that means keeping track of your insurance rates and what percentage of your practice each of the panels occupies. Keeping track of the average time you’re spending on evaluations and the amount you’re getting reimbursed for each, tracking the cost per evaluation [00:22:00] to you- how much does it actually cost you to conduct an evaluation? So, that gets into expenses and overhead. And then of course, how much of your billing you’re actually collecting. So, keeping track of which insurance companies are paying and which bills are outstanding and things like that.

    So these are just a few numbers and a few metrics that you might want to track. The general theme here is that you are not afraid to track and measure. There’s a saying out there that I’m going to paraphrase and totally butcher, of course, but it’s something along the lines of, what doesn’t get measured gets ignored. And I think that’s absolutely true. So, not being afraid to measure and really have a close relationship with [00:23:00] numbers and metrics in your practice.

    If you do have that relationship, you can see the behavior that follows is that you can then use those numbers to predict growth, when to hire, when to fire, profit, of course, financial planning, there are all sorts of visioning and planning that can come from knowing your numbers really well.

    Another behavior is making sure that you’re really zeroed in on your zone of ideal activity. I really liked the way that Michael Hyatt lays this out in his book, Free to Focus, which I will link to as well. He breaks it into four quadrants. There are basically the tasks that you [00:24:00] don’t like to do and you are not good at, there are the tasks that you love to do and you’re really good at, and then there are the two areas where we mix those qualities. So tasks that you don’t like to do but you happen to be really good at them or tasks that you really like to do but you’re not very good at them.

    So, the idea is that you are spending as much time as possible doing the tasks that you love and you are really good at. Again, if you want to walk through a concrete exercise to figure that out, his book Free to Focus has that exercise. And it was very helpful for me realizing that… I think for a lot of us, it’s really easy for me too to do a lot of things because of the illusion that I should be doing them. I’m pretty good at most tasks, [00:25:00] but I don’t like doing all those tasks and I’m definitely not the most efficient at doing some of those tasks.

    It was really eye-opening to just take a week or two and literally list out all of the tasks that I’m doing on a spreadsheet and then categorize them according to these four quadrants. And it was kind of amazing how few fit in that quadrant of things I’m passionate about and things that I’m good at that benefit the practice.

    So general theme, zeroing in and only doing what you’re supposed to be doing and what you like to do.

    Another quality or behavior that cuts across CEOs is having this mix of a humble, yet driven leadership style. So being able to employ this growth mindset like, always wanting to be better, being optimistic, seeing the best in things, seeing [00:26:00] things as problems to solve instead of catastrophic events, and catastrophizing each of those things I think comes into the personality of a CEO, but pairing those things with being humble. I think it was in Good to Great by Jim Collins, he talks about the relationship between the number of times a CEO will refer to their business or their staff as we versus I and how that’s strongly correlated with the success of the business. So that I think really plays into the humility that I’m talking about here.

    Okay. Now the last couple of things here are I think easier to really put into play. So one is just taking care [00:27:00] of yourself. So self-care is a huge component. Again, when I was doing research for this episode, just realizing that the majority of CEOs are relentless about self-care. So that means eating well, sleeping well, exercising, meditating, consistent morning routines, taking time away, all of those components that are necessary to really bring your best self to your work.

    Related to that, relentlessly pursuing self-awareness is hugely important for a CEO. So knowing yourself is only going to help you in this process. And this is an ongoing journey, of course. I feel like I have a long way to go with self-awareness. My wife would probably agree with that and my employees would probably agree with that. But just having that relentless pursuit of self-awareness again, [00:28:00] through therapy, coaching, reading, reflection, meditation, all those pieces. Seeking feedback from others who are close to you, that can all be helpful.

    And then finally, a trait or behavior that goes along with the CEO mindset is looking to the future. Again, if you don’t plan to hire or grow your business, that’s totally fine. But having that habit of always looking at least one year out. Have this be a constant evolving process where you are checking in, where will I be in a year? Where will this practice be in a year? You can try to push it to three years. Anything beyond that I think is just hallucination, to be honest because we have so little control over it what’s going on and what’s going to happen this year is an excellent example of [00:29:00] that. So thinking one year out, what is this going to look like? And then it’s relatively easy to map it back to where you’re currently at and what might need to happen over the course of the year to get there and just constantly re-evaluating.

    I said in my episode about retreats that I take retreats twice a year. And those are really times where I’m… it’s like a rolling re-evaluation. I’m always looking ahead. So what’s going to happen in the next year. So that’s happening about twice a year for me.

    Okay. So, a quick and dirty episode on CEO mindset. What it is, what it looks like, how to get it, and how to put it into play. This is not meant to be comprehensive by any means. There are, like I said, tons of resources out there on developing a CEO mindset, but the hope is that you take away [00:30:00] a few concrete items that you can work on or books that you can check out and start to move in this direction just to keep your practice moving ahead and really save your own sanity.

    Now, if any of this rang true for you and you would like to take a really firm step in moving toward a CEO mindset, I would, again, invite you to check out the Advanced Practice Mastermind group for testing psychologists that’s going to start in about 3 or 4 weeks. So this is a group for those practice owners who’ve made it past the beginning stage, got the basics in place, the practice is running smoothly, but now you’re thinking, what next? Or what do I need to make better? What can be more efficient or how do I hire that person? All those questions are appropriate for the advanced practice group. You can go to thetestingpsychologists.com/advanced [00:31:00] and book a pre-group call to see if it’s a good fit for you.

    All right. Thank you as always for listening. If you have not subscribed and or told a friend about this podcast, I would love for you to do either one of those and continue to spread the reach of the show. So everybody, take care. l will talk to you next time.

    The information contained in this podcast and on The Testing Psychologists website are intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for professional, psychological, [00:32:00] psychiatric, or medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please note that no doctor-patient relationship is formed here, and similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host or guests of this podcast and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of any mental health practitioner or medical provider, please seek one in your area. Similarly, if you need supervision on clinical matters, please find a supervisor with expertise that fits your needs.

    Click here to listen instead!

  • 134: Top Five Testing Tasks for a Virtual Assistant

    134: Top Five Testing Tasks for a Virtual Assistant

    Would you rather read the transcript? Click here.

    Hot on the heels of last week’s episode on knowing WHEN you need a VA, we’re talking today about some of the most important tasks in your testing practice that you can delegate to a VA. These are all tasks that tend to eat up lots of time in our schedules and are highly trainable. They’re also fairly easy to let go of, from the emotional standpoint of a practice owner (don’t worry, I’m not making you let go of answering the phones!). Here’s the list:

    1. Scoring questionnaires and saving them to the client file
    2. Sending out intake emails and paperwork
    3. Checking insurance benefits
    4. Emailing online questionnaires
    5. Ordering testing materials

    Cool Things Mentioned

    CE Opportunity – Webinar on Remote Assessment!

    I’m speaking alongside Dr. Ryan Matchullis in a webinar titled, “Psychological Assessment of Children During COVID-19: The Nuts & Bolts.” This event is co-sponsored by Build Great Teams and the Psychologists’ Association of Alberta. Register here: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/psychological-assessment-of-children-during-covid-19-the-nuts-and-bolts-registration-109549260788. Hope to see you there! 

    The Testing Psychologist podcast is approved for CEU’s!

    I’ve partnered with At Health to offer CE credits for podcast episodes! Visit this link to access current and past episodes available for CE credit. You can use code “TTP10” for a discount on ALL the course credits you purchase from At Health!

    About Dr. Jeremy Sharp

    I’m a licensed psychologist and Clinical Director at the Colorado Center for Assessment & Counseling, a private practice that I founded in 2009 and grew to include 12 licensed clinicians, three clinicians in training, and a full administrative staff. I earned my undergraduate degree in Experimental Psychology from the University of South Carolina before getting my Master’s and PhD in Counseling Psychology from Colorado State University. These days, I specialize in psychological and neuropsychological evaluation with kids and adolescents.

    As the host of the Testing Psychologist Podcast, I provide private practice consulting for psychologists and other mental health professionals who want to start or grow psychological testing services in their practices. I live in Fort Collins, Colorado with my wife (also a therapist) and two young kids.

    Ready to grow your testing services? Click below to schedule a complimentary 30-minute pre-consulting call!

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  • 134 Transcript

    [00:00:00] Dr. Sharp: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Testing Psychologist podcast, the podcast where we talk all about the business and practice of psychological and neuropsychological assessment. I’m your host, Dr. Jeremy Sharp, licensed psychologist, group practice owner, and private practice coach.

    Hey, everyone. We are talking again this week about virtual assistance. If you didn’t catch the episode from last week on when you need a virtual assistant, I would definitely recommend you go back and check that out because today, I’m talking all about actual tasks that you can delegate to a virtual assistant that won’t be too much of an emotional conflict for you, by which I mean, we have trouble letting go of the important aspects of our practice and these tasks while important, of course, are not going to be those huge tasks, like say, letting someone else answer the phone that can be really hard for [00:01:00] practice owners to delegate. So, I’ve got five pretty simple, straightforward tasks that directly pertain to testing that can easily be delegated to a VA.

    Now, before we jump into the episode, I wanted to remind you again, I’m co-hosting a webinar two weeks from now, or co-presenting rather, with Dr. Ryan Matchullis, who is a psychologist in Canada. We’re going to be talking all about remote assessment with kids. I’m particularly excited about Ryan’s piece of the presentation because he’ll be talking all about remote assessment with, particularly challenging kids. I know that this is relevant for a lot of us, especially some of the school psychologists out there as school gets started and we might be doing more assessment with challenging kids. The link to sign up will be in the show notes. So make [00:02:00] sure and check that out. If you’re an iTunes, you should be able to click the link directly from the episode’s description.  And I hope to see you there.

    I’ll also let you know about The Advanced Practice Mastermind, which will be starting in September. I’m currently screening folks and scheduling phone chats for anyone who might be interested. This is a group coaching experience with 6 other psychologists in the advanced stages of practice. We’re talking all about leveling up, hiring, additional income streams, streamlining your time, all those things that advanced practice owners tend to wrestle with. So check that out, thetestingpsychologist.com/advanced will get you where you need to go.

    Okay, let’s talk about tasks you can delegate to a VA.

    [00:03:00] Okay, y’all, here we are back talking all about tasks that you can delegate to a virtual assistant. So like the previous business episodes,  this one’s going to be relatively short and hopefully digestible. There are lots of links in the show notes. I’ll go ahead and throw that out there here in the beginning, two books, resources, VA companies, and different things that can help you on your journey to finding an assistant.

    Okay. So let’s jump in. Top five things that you can delegate to a virtual assistant in a testing practice in no particular order, though. I suppose I’ll try to start at the beginning of the client journey and go from there.

    The first thing that you can outsource [00:04:00] that takes up quite a bit of our time is checking insurance benefits. If you are an insurance-based practice, you know that billing insurance for testing can be a little complicated, and determining whether clients have coverage for testing can be a little complicated as well. Now, most of the time, at least with our panels, it tends to follow the mental health benefits. Sometimes it follows the medical benefits and sometimes it is totally separate for some reason and it has a different set of benefits. So having a VA check insurance benefits for clients is an easily delegatable task that will save you quite a bit of time.

    So let’s assume on the short end, checking insurance benefits for a client only takes about five minutes per client. You log into say Availity [00:05:00] or another insurance portal, you put in the client information, you scroll through the benefits and it appears to all make sense and you get a good sense right off the bat of what kind of coverage they’re going to have for testing. That’s great. So maybe five minutes per client. If you are seeing, let’s just say, eight evaluations a month, that’s about 40 minutes, maybe 45 minutes that this could save you.

    If however, things are complicated or there is no online portal or the benefits are hard to read or confusing, or misleading, then you have to jump on the phone. And most of the time when we jump on the phone, that is going to be maybe a 10-minute conversation to sort through and find someone who is able to answer your questions accurately. You want to of course get a reference number. So now maybe we’re up to 10 minutes apiece, which is about [00:06:00] an hour and a half over the course of a month.

    So this is something that you can write out a very quick script and really define clearly what a VA would need to ask about. It typically takes a couple of iterations to really dial it in and train someone, but once it’s done, you are good to go. So number one, checking insurance benefits.

    Number two, sending out intake emails and paperwork. This is super easy for a VA to do. All they need to do is look in your EHR and determine when your intakes are happening and you can set out a timeframe and agree with them on when you would like the intake email sent out and that’s about it.

    You can, of course, draft the template for the email. Maybe you have one already. You [00:07:00] should have one already. I hope that you are not writing your intake emails from scratch every single time. If you are, that’s a great place to use a tool like TextExpander or simply use the templates function in Gmail or another email provider to streamline that process a little bit.

    So what we do in our practice is, we send intake emails two weeks ahead of the intake appointment. And that email also includes our paperwork to fill out. So for us, all of this happens through IntakeQ. We wrote an email template. It attaches the right paperwork and we’re good to go.

    So this is again, an easy thing to train a VA on. And if you think about it, this maybe saves you about, let’s just say 5 to 10 minutes per client as well. So now we’re [00:08:00] up to somewhere around an hour and a half to two hours a month, just from training a VA to do those two tasks.

    Next on the list is emailing online questionnaires. So these days, we’re administering all of our questionnaires online, the BASC, the BRIEF, ABAS, SRS, any behavioral checklist is going out online.

    Now a lot of you probably know that at least as far as we found it impossible to only send checklists from one source. So we’re going into a few different portals. Typically, that would result in sending 2, 3, 4 separate emails to parents to fill out each of these [00:09:00] questionnaires. Now, there are a few things wrong with this.

    And this is a side tip if you’re emailing online questionnaires. What we have found is that it works a lot better if you go to each of these disparate portals, and instead of sending the link for each individual questionnaire to the parent, you send all the links to yourself or to a VA, for example, and then that individual aggregates all of the individual links into one email so that the parent or the teacher or the other reporter only gets one email with 2, 3, 4 different links rather than them having to track down three or four separate emails. Because inevitably what we found is that, especially ones from Q-global were getting lost in the spam folder. If you send two questionnaires from the same [00:10:00] platform, the emails nest behind each other, and parents think that it’s just a repeat and so they don’t fill out the second one. So, aggregating all of those questionnaire links has been really helpful.

    Now, the tricky part is it that takes an additional amount of time. So that adds probably 10 extra minutes per evaluation to go through that whole process on top of the 10 minutes that it takes to actually sign the client up and get them into the portals and assign the right questionnaires to them. So in this case, a VA could save you anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes per client to send them to send out online questionnaires. Again, the only training involved would be defining which portals [00:11:00] correspond to which questionnaires.

    And then, what I did was I just made a video showing each of the portals, walking through the whole process, then walking through the process of aggregating the links into a single email. That video ended up being about 10 minutes long. And I sent that to my admin staff and now they know how to do it. So, training is fairly minimal. And then all you have to do is specify using task management software like Asana or Trello or Todoist. There are tons that you could use and you just assign the questionnaires and specify where they need to go and your job is done.

    So again, 10 to 20 minutes per client, just for your online questionnaires. All of a sudden now, if we’re operating on this eight evaluation a month schedule, we are up to another hour and a half, [00:12:00] maybe even maybe two hours over the course of the month. So now we are saving somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 to 4 hours by assigning these tasks to a VA.

    All right. So let’s move on to task number four. So task number four is scoring the questionnaires and saving them to the client file. So, this is another really easy thing to do. In most of the online questionnaire platforms, it really just involves clicking on the client name and clicking on a button that says run report or generate report or score now, something like that.

    So, you can set it up in most of these portals where it will send a notification email to the email address that you specify letting that person know when a [00:13:00] questionnaire is completed. So a trap that I got into is, when I originally signed up for these portals, I put my email address instead of a general practice email. And you can always go in and change it. But you can tweak that so that the notification of completion emails go to your assistant and then they know to jump in there, score each questionnaire and again, save them to the client file that is hopefully residing in some sort of cloud-based system, like a G Suite or OneDrive or some other HIPAA compliant storage system.

    So that’s a pretty labor unintense task. Training is pretty low as long as they have the logins for each of those portals, which they would if they are sending the questionnaires. So they just jumped in there and score them. So this maybe saves you, I don’t know, 10 minutes per client, let’s say. So [00:14:00] that tacks on another hour, maybe an hour and a half. So now again, we’re up around 4 to 5 hours a month that are being saved just by having this VA.

    So the last thing that I want to talk about that a VA can do fairly easily is ordering testing materials. So this is something that I’ve found as just has been the bane of my existence because I never check things in a timely manner or notice when we’re running low. And I always end up ordering at the last minute and hoping it’ll go through. And we all know that depending on who you’re ordering from, that might happen quickly, it might happen less quickly.

    Once we delegated the ordering of testing materials, things got a lot smoother. So we have a big spreadsheet with all of the item numbers or SKU numbers for the materials that we order, both paper and digital. And on that spreadsheet, [00:15:00] it also says what the minimum number we need to maintain is, so essentially, how many do we have left that will trigger a reorder. And we also specify where you need to order each of those materials. So what website.

    Once you have put that together, then you just have to agree on a set schedule. We do a once-a-week check to make sure that our inventory is high enough and if it’s not, then the admin staff will order testing materials. So again, this saves you, gosh, depending on the size of the order and what you’re doing, that could easily be 10 to 15 minutes a week, which doesn’t sound like much, honestly, but if you think back to my episode about time blocking and that idea of attention residue, this is just another one of those [00:16:00] little tasks that:

    1) Is distracting and wrecks your focus and concentration when you’re trying to do important work.

    2) It is just one of those tasks that you absolutely do not need to be doing. It’s a rote task that is easily trained and is not something that you are getting paid to do at all.

    So if we go back and total up our time, a VA is going to be saving us somewhere around let’s say six hours a month just from these five simple tasks. So 5 to 6 hours a month. Let’s assume that your time is worth $100 an hour. You can do that math pretty easily, that you could feasibly be spending $500 a month on a VA and it would pay for [00:17:00] itself in the time that it gave back to you.

    So, that’s just the way to wrap your mind around it and think about it. I hear a lot of folks saying, I can’t afford a VA, or I don’t know where to get started or what would we do with them. And I hope that this has broken it down just a little bit more clearly in terms of just some easy tasks that you could delegate like tomorrow if you spent an hour or so putting together some training materials.

    So, I hope this is helpful. I’m a big fan of assistance, of course. And like I said, there are several resources in the show notes in terms of where you might find virtual assistance and how to work with virtual assistants. And I should say too, this doesn’t just apply to virtual assistants. You can certainly train an in-house admin person, which would be cheaper and it involves a little bit more work in terms of the employment [00:18:00] piece in setting up a contract or a W2 situation, but it can apply to any assistant that you would like to bring on in your practice. And again, these are low emotional investment tasks that you should be able to trust and delegate to someone fairly easily.

    Okay, y’all, thank you for checking out this little mini-episode or rather mini-series on virtual assistance. There is a lot to be said about VAs. I have two other podcasts about VAs, one with Uriah Guilford from The Productive Therapist and one way back with Jaime Jay from Bottleneck Virtual Assistants.

    There are many other tasks that you could delegate to a VA as well. I just picked the top five that I think would give you a pretty good bang for your buck and are easiest to delegate. So hope you’re thinking about that.

    And like [00:19:00] I said at the beginning, if you are interested in a group coaching experience for advanced practice psychologists, you can go to thetestingpsychologist.com/advanced, get some information about the group and get on the list to do a call to see if it would be a good fit.

    Also in our show notes, I’ll have that link to sign up for the webinar on remote assessment. This will be in August co-sponsored by Build Great Teams and the Psychologists’ Association of Alberta, Canada talking about remote assessment with complex kids. So lots of resources over the coming weeks.

    As always, thank you for listening. If you haven’t rated the podcast and subscribed to the podcast, I would invite you to consider both of those and be ever so grateful for both of them as well.

    Okay, y’all, [00:20:00] we are heading into the last part of the summer. School is going to be getting started soon in some form or fashion. We just got our announcement this week and we’ll be home with our kids a lot, at least for the first, first few weeks. So hope all of y’all are hanging in there. I may be able to take a little break or get out of town before things get chaotic again in the fall. I’ll be back next week with an episode on Monday with Dr. Bridget Rivera on clinician identity and layers of culture and how they come into our assessment process. So stay tuned for that as well.

    All right. Take care of y’all. Until next time.

    [00:21:00] The information contained in this podcast and on The Testing Psychologists website are intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for professional, psychological, psychiatric, or medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please note that no doctor-patient relationship is formed here, and similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host or guests of this podcast and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of any mental health practitioner or medical provider, please seek one in your area. Similarly, if you need supervision on clinical matters, please find a supervisor with expertise that fits your [00:22:00] needs.

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  • 133 Transcript

    [00:00:00] Dr. Sharp: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Testing Psychologist podcast, the podcast where we talk all about the business and practice of psychological and neuropsychological assessment. I’m your host, Dr. Jeremy Sharp, licensed psychologist, group practice owner, and private practice coach.

    All right, everybody. Welcome back. This is the last episode in our International Assessment Series. Today, I am talking with Dr. Joseph Graybill. He’s a licensed psychologist and certified school psychologist. After completing his Master’s degree at Columbia University and Ph.D. at Fordham University, Dr. Graybill worked as a school psychologist in a New Jersey public school and in private practice. He is currently the psychologist at the Anglo-American school in Moscow, Russia, and maintains a Teletherapy practice.

    Much like the prior episodes, we’re going to be talking through the ins and outs of his position, how that’s similar to the practice that we conduct in the U.S., how it’s [00:01:00] different, and things that you might want to think about if you have ever considered moving internationally and particularly working in an international school.

    It is a unique episode, especially from the previous two, in that Joseph is a US citizen, and working in an international school provides a little bit more of a bridge for an easier transition to a foreign country than just diving right in. I hope you take a lot away from this episode.

    Before we get to the conversation, I wanted to give a little promotion again to the webinar that I’m going to be co-hosting in August with Dr. Ryan Matulis. This webinar is going to be all about the nuts and bolts of remote assessment during COVID-19 for children. We’re going to go over research, practice considerations, and tech setup, and Ryan is going to dive into considerations for [00:02:00] working with challenging kids with developmental delays over telehealth. I think there’s a lot to be taken away from this webinar and I hope that we will see you there. The link is in the show notes. You can register and get CE credits if you’re interested in that too.

    All right. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Dr. Joseph Graybill.

    Hey y’all, welcome back to another episode of The Testing Psychologist podcast. Hey, I’m excited to have my guest here, Dr. Joseph Graybill to talk all about International Assessment in Russia, specifically in Moscow. Joseph, welcome to the podcast.

    Dr. Joseph: Thank you, Jeremy. [00:03:00] Pleasure to be with you.

    Dr. Sharp: I’m glad to have you. It’s interesting. This International Series has been a dream of mine for a long time but it stalled a bit with finding guests. I’m fortunate that we ran across one another and you’re willing to jump on. I think this is a version of international assessment that people will be interested in.

    Dr. Joseph: Thank you for having me on. I look forward to our conversation. 

    Dr. Sharp: Cool. I want to jump right into it. Can you tell people where you’re at and exactly what you are doing there?

    Dr. Joseph: Sure. Right now I’m in Moscow, Russia. This is my 2nd year working in Moscow. Prior to that, I was working in a very traditional school psychology role in a suburban high school in New Jersey. [00:04:00] I did that for several years and maybe even more.

    It was probably a combination of personal and also professional aspirations. I’ve always been a big traveler. I’ve traveled to about 60 countries and a lot of that travel was… A lot of times we’re afforded the opportunity to travel as school psychologists in the summer. So I took advantage of that. I enjoyed immersing myself in different cultures around the world.

    I honestly can’t say I specifically went into it thinking about Russia in particular, but it took me maybe a year or two of browsing around the internet and looking at what opportunities there are for psychologists to work abroad. I eventually came on to international schools and what I found in my research was that there are two main organizations that [00:05:00] link teachers to teaching abroad. One is called International School Services and the other is called Search Associates. They vet and make sure educators have credentials. They also vet these schools, link them through job fairs and conferences, and help them to get together for interviews.

    I attended one of these job conferences in Atlanta. I didn’t go into it with any big expectations. I still consider myself just poking around and looking to see what was out there.

    I eventually ended up having an interview on Skype with my present school which is called the The Anglo-American School of Moscow. I felt like the [00:06:00] interview went great. I liked where they were coming from. They happen to be one of the best international schools in the world and they were, of course, looking for a school psychologist position.

    The whole special education services in international schools is still emerging. So not every school in the international community even has a school psychologist. So I was pretty limited in terms of my search and finding schools that would even need somebody like me to come in and do testing, crisis counseling, that sort of thing, and all the traditional roles that we do.

    This was one school. I can’t say I made an overnight decision. I went back and forth with it and what I ultimately decided to do was take a leave of absence for a year from my job, I thought that was practical, and then I went in and moved to Moscow, Russia. I loved it so much. [00:07:00] I signed on for another year and left my job in New Jersey. 

    Dr. Sharp: Oh, wow. What a journey. There are many stops along the way that I want to talk to you about.

    Dr. Joseph: Sure. Go ahead. 

    Dr. Sharp: That’s the five-minute version, but I have a feeling we can expand that.

    Dr. Joseph: Yeah, there’s a lot more, especially in that decision-making and in my research. We can take this in any way that you want to.

    Dr. Sharp: I’m curious. Where did you first hear or even know to look for a job like this? How did this even come on your radar?

    Dr. Joseph: I have a friend who is a teacher in Bogota, Colombia, and he would tell me about international, and I had no idea what an international school was. Basically, these are private institutions [00:08:00] that cater towards generally English-speaking students and families. So you have children of diplomats, you have children of executives working in corporations, not always executives but international corporations, and they want to send their children to an English-speaking school and something that mirrors education in the United States and Canada, for example, which makes sense.

    So I had no idea and he was telling me that you have this opportunity to immerse yourself in this culture, travel, and live abroad, which is something that always appealed to me. In my conversation with him, that piqued my interest. And that’s when I started to do my research on it and delved into it a little bit.

    Dr. Sharp: Sure. Can you say again the website or the place where you were looking for these jobs?

    Dr. Joseph: Sure. [00:09:00] From what I gathered, there are two main ones. The one I used is ISS-International School Services. The second main service is Search Associates.

    So, for teachers, school psychologists, for counselors, they basically get credentialized. So these services are going to ensure that they have the right credentials and that’s usually, of course, certification in one of the states in the United States. They generally look for two years of teaching or school psychology or counseling experience. And then once they credential you, they open you up and you’re able to interview. You can start looking at what positions are available abroad through their portal on their website. [00:10:00] They have a great website. It’s really easy to find jobs. You hit a couple of buttons and you could apply for them and start interviewing.

    Dr. Sharp: That’s fantastic. And then where does it go from there? You mentioned traveling to Atlanta for a conference of some sort. What does the process look like?

    Dr. Joseph: Both ISS and Search Associates organize these job conferences probably somewhere between 3 and 5 a year. One of them happens to be in Atlanta. They usually offer one in Massachusetts and also in San Francisco within North America. They also have some in Asia typically for people who are already in the field, but for anybody interested in starting this out and just wants to explore and maybe go on some interviews, they do offer them a couple within the United States. And then you have an opportunity [00:11:00] to meet and speak with school leadership, and administrators to find out about the school. There are all kinds of presentations on specific schools throughout the world and it’s great for networking.

    I used that opportunity to pick the brains of some of the other applicants who had been in the system or were new to it. I learned quite a bit from just a day or 2 at this conference.

    Dr. Sharp: I bet. What are some of the questions that you asked or that one of us might ask on these interviews, or maybe a better way to phrase it is, what are you looking for in an international school when you are vetting them if that makes sense?

    Dr. Joseph: Good question. I believe I already had a little bit of some knowledge. I’m trying to recall the name. There’s a really good research. It’s called International Schools [00:12:00] Review. It’s a blog with some articles and there’s also a forum that you can join. You may pay $20 or $30 a month, but basically, it gives you access to teachers who write reviews on all of these international schools from all over the world and talk about how they’re received in the countries, both personally and professionally, what it’s like to work for administrators in the school, what are the students like, what are their backgrounds generally, and that was a really good resource for me to identify what were the most reputable schools.

    You know you’re going to get a salary, they’re going to pay you, and they’re going to do what they say in terms of getting you an apartment or at least facilitating that, and all those personal things that come up when you put into [00:13:00] the grand scheme of things that, yeah, Hey I’m moving to Moscow, Russia. I want to ensure that there are certain things in place to make it comfortable.

    Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. That’s something I wanted to talk about. I’m trying to stay in order just for my own brain’s organization, but I do want to ask about how you negotiate or determine what they provide or don’t provide that whole area.

    Dr. Joseph: At my school, Anglo-American school, we’re fortunate that they treat us very well. They go out of their way for the expat staff and they provide housing. That’s something that appealed to me because with the language and cultural barriers in Russia, I imagine it’s pretty difficult to go out and find [00:14:00] an apartment and if you haven’t been to the country, finding the right location, et cetera. That’s one area that was certainly appealing. I know some other international schools will provide a stipend and maybe set you up with a realtor, and give you some suggestions, which is fine, but for me in a country like Russia, mainly due to the language difficulties because I don’t speak Russian, that was that was really nice for them to do that. That was appealing.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah. What are some other amenities or benefits that one might look for or hope for in this kind of setup?

    Dr. Joseph: I talked a little bit about the apartment. I can tell you one thing that our staff loves is we were able to get Amazon and especially in this pandemic, that’s been…

    Dr. Sharp: That’s crucial.

    Dr. Joseph: The staff values [00:15:00] that. Again, a lot of this was new to me, but there’s something called the… I should mention my school, the Anglo-American school is affiliated with the US embassy and also the British embassy and Canadian embassy. I find that’s a little bit unusual in the international schools, most have, if they had an official relationship with the US embassy, they’ve moved beyond that and become just private schools, but we still do have that relationship. 

    There are some perks with that. The staff, we have diplomatic passports which again is unusual. So within Russia, we’re considered diplomats. That certainly has some perks and advantages to it. Where I was going with this was Amazon, there’s something called a diplomatic pouch. So we’re able to receive mail and packages [00:16:00] free of charge through the U.S. embassy.

    Dr. Sharp: Oh, I see.

    Dr. Joseph: That’s one of those perks that people really like. If they choose to get a car, they have a diplomatic license plate and things like that.

    Dr. Sharp: I was going to ask too about, and this is just my naivety with international living, is a diplomatic passport different than a work visa, or is it a special kind, or do you have both? Or how does that?

    Dr. Joseph: I think it’s different than a work visa. With the diplomatic passport comes the right to work, but you but we are under the auspices of the United States Embassy. Considering the political climate in Russia, I think that is something that is appealing to the staff as well. It feels like there’s an extra layer [00:17:00] of some protection. If things got bad here in a political sense, you would be treated like a diplomat.

    Dr. Sharp: Sure. That’s some peace of mind, I think. A lot of people would agree. 

    Dr. Joseph: Absolutely.

    Dr. Sharp: Now, what about things like health insurance and retirement? Is that even part of the deal?

    Dr. Joseph: Yeah. There’s health insurance. We have great health insurance. It’s through Cigna. We’re covered in any country, so whether you’re on vacation during Christmas break, or you go back to the U.S., we’re covered. Again, this is one of the one of the best International schools in the world. I’m not familiar with all the financial packages of all of them. I can only speak from this experience. The health care is great. I’m trying to think of what else might be appealing for any school psychologists who are crazy enough to go out and do this.

    This is a good one. We don’t pay any [00:18:00] U.S. income tax on this. That’s something that people find interesting and maybe a good feeling. If you stay technically, there’s… if you stay out of the country, out of the US for 330 days a year, which I do, there’s a foreign tax exemption so you don’t have to pay up to a certain amount US federal taxes. 

    Dr. Sharp: I see. That is interesting. Goodness. You just said, for someone crazy enough to consider this kind of arrangement, it makes me want to ask from your perspective, what personality characteristics and traits lend themselves to a job like this if someone is considering?

    Dr. Joseph: That’s a good question. I don’t recall exactly, but I’m sure that came up on [00:19:00] my interview. I think this would be a really difficult gig for people who aren’t comfortable spending large amounts of time abroad. I mentioned I had traveled. I hadn’t lived anywhere, but I did spend quite a bit of time traveling mostly in the summer. So it could be one or two months. And that gave me a pretty good comfort level in different cultures and different countries. So that’s one.

    I think people really have to have a strong resolve and maybe even independence, especially if we look at what’s going on right now. In the middle of the pandemic, I’m in Russia, dealing with a different government’s approach to the Coronavirus. Even though we’re able to get back, it’s very complicated and [00:20:00] difficult. There are limited flights and there’s no assurance that we could get back into Russia when the school year starts in August.

    I bring that up because I do think people who would want to go into this really need to consider that despite the great financial packages and comfort, these schools do go out of their way to make you comfortable, life abroad is not always easy. You’re not living in your culture and your native language. And when things like this come up, it really will test your resolve and commitment to living abroad because that’s what you’re doing.

    Dr. Sharp: Of course. I wonder, could you talk about some of the challenges, both pre-coronavirus and now during coronavirus, that have been most [00:21:00] prominent for you in this adventure?

    Dr. Joseph: Sure. I would say, from a professional standpoint, working as a school psychologist in the international community has certain challenges because not only are you learning about Russian culture, but we have students from over 50 different countries. So you get thrown in there and you have to be mindful about cultural differences. I equate some of the countries there in terms of stigma and mental health, for example, they might be 30 or 40 years behind maybe where we are in the United States with acceptance and how they process a diagnosis of autism, ADHD, or a reading disability. So I had to [00:22:00] be mindful of that and learn about different cultures and work my way through it.

    One of the other challenges professionally is when I want to refer a child for a psychiatric evaluation. We really have limited resources, especially English-speaking psychiatrists whom I felt comfortable with. I hope none of them are listening right now, but I haven’t found one in almost two years that I’m comfortable referring a child to. That’s certainly a big challenge for us.

    Dr. Sharp: I could see that. This is, again, another naive question, but do you have the option to refer for telehealth psychiatry? Can they be prescribed in a different country? I don’t that’s […]

    Dr. Joseph: That’s a good question. There are all [00:23:00] kinds of legal implications in terms of bringing some of the medicines across the border. What I’m finding is, the psychiatrists in Russia are prescribing antiquated medications. They’re not up to date with what we’re prescribing in the US. A lot of children will, if they have the opportunity to go to Europe or the United States and get seen by a psychiatrist and then try to get enough dosages to bring back to Russia and stock up, but as you know Jeremy, the psychiatric care is the maintenance of it. So even though you make an initial diagnosis and prescribe medication, you need to be on top of how the child is responding and then the onus is on the parents to do that.

    [00:24:00] Dr. Sharp: Right. That does seem complicated. My goodness. It sounds like there are some professional challenges. I know we’re going to get into the work in more detail here in just a bit, but I wonder, have there been other personal, emotional, or cultural challenges that you’re willing to share just for folks who might be considering this and wondering what to anticipate?

    Dr. Joseph: In terms of anticipation, I felt very welcomed here in Moscow. I think in the United States we have certain stigmas of Russian people as a bit colder personality-wise. I would define them as reserved and cautious but they are wonderful people once you get to know them; very welcoming, warm, intelligent, [00:25:00] cultured. And so that’s been maybe the best part of my experience is learning about this amazing, unique culture. Making friendships and getting to know local people has been fantastic.

    With that, I would say that the language is probably the biggest barrier to making connections and even making your way around Moscow. When I first arrived, I had a colleague who advised me, there are two different types of people who come here as expats- people who are committed from day one to learning the language and people who don’t. There’s no middle ground. Unfortunately, I was in the latter. I haven’t picked up the language. With that comes some challenges, of course.

    Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. Russian seems like a hard language to learn. It doesn’t bear a lot of resemblance to any language I’m familiar with.

    [00:26:00] Dr. Joseph: Absolutely. I speak Spanish a bit and that certainly in comparison is a much easier acquisition, I think, for English language speakers.

    Dr. Sharp: I got you. Thanks for talking through that. I am curious about the work, of course. Before I transition, I meant to ask a long time ago, how did you pick the location that you picked specifically Moscow in Russia? I imagine there are lots of choices.

    Dr. Joseph: Prior to working here, I had come as a tourist and I liked the city, but frankly speaking, I never had a dream of living here. So when I went into investigating different opportunities abroad, I wasn’t specifically thinking of Moscow, but this position happened to be opened and I was familiar with the excellent [00:27:00] reputation of the school. So I went forward with the interview and it just seemed like a great fit. That’s basically how I ended up here. I was impressed with the folks that interviewed me. Again, knowing the background of the school, I thought it was a really good move for me if I wanted to get into the international community as a psychologist.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah. Is there something to be said for that? Once you’ve worked at one international school, does that open doors to others if you want to go elsewhere?

    Dr. Joseph: Absolutely. That’s a good question. I imagine schools are looking for people. Again, I talked about some of the adjustment and assimilation difficulties when you’re moving abroad. I imagine schools are looking for people who have evidence that they’re comfortable living and working abroad, and they have experience in the international community. That’s not to say that they rule out people who haven’t, but it certainly opens some inroads and [00:28:00] some doors. It’s like any professional community. You make connections with people, you hear of different openings, you’re familiar with school leadership, and then they go you to another school and you stay in contact. So it’s very similar to how that works in the United States, I’d imagine.

    Dr. Sharp: That makes sense. Now, am I right in thinking that the world of international school psychologists is fairly small? Like, once you’re in it, you know people and easy to make connections?

    Dr. Joseph: Yeah, it is pretty small. I think when I was searching, I found maybe 10 international schools that I knew of that had traditional school psychology positions where you’re doing assessments, counseling, teacher consultation and all the things that we do as school psychologists, and they weren’t counselor [00:29:00] positions. So maybe about 10.

    I was fortunate enough to go to an international conference last fall, it was in Sofia, Bulgaria, and I met one or two other school psychologists that were working in international school. So that was a great chance to understand what their school was like and how they were being used in that role as a psychologist.

    Dr. Sharp: Nice.

    Dr. Joseph: We’re very few but it’s great to connect with them when you have that opportunity.

    Dr. Sharp: Oh, I’m sure. Talk about collegiality, man. That might be a nice segue to what the work actually looks like. And my first question with that is, as a non school psychologist, I’m just a regular old clinical psychologist, do you happen to know if these positions are open to those of us in my position who [00:30:00] are not school psychologist specifically but do regular assessment or neuropsychological assessment? 

    Dr. Joseph: That’s a good question. When I interviewed, I think this school particularly was looking for a doctorate in either school psychology or clinical psychology. So I imagine clinical psychologists would certainly meet the requirements, especially if they had a background in assessment as you do. So if you’re looking to move abroad, Jeremy, I’ll point you in the right direction.

    Dr. Sharp: Yeah, that’s not out of the normal possibility. My wife was a world traveler before we met and has lived abroad and she, I think always harbors that in the back of her mind as an option. So who knows? I like to keep all the doors open.

    Dr. Joseph: Of course.

    Dr. Sharp: So what does your work actually look like day to day, week to week?

    [00:31:00] Dr. Joseph: A little bit more of a background on school. There are about I’d say 1100 students pre-k through 12 and I’m the only psychologist. So, I do have a hefty schedule. Most of my responsibilities are within conducting psychoeducational assessments. That probably takes up maybe 70% or 80% of my time when we talk about actually conducting the assessments, report writing, and giving feedback to parents and then designing interventions with teachers and administrators. That is quite time-consuming and as you can imagine the student population that size and just one psychologist, there’s quite a bit of work to do, but I do have the opportunity to do individual counseling sessions this past year. I also did a social skills group [00:32:00] or elementary students are on the spectrum and then, of course, crisis management. That comes up in every school. So I’m there to do crisis counseling. And also I’m one of the child protection officers. So any suspicion of child abuse, neglect, and that kind of thing. I’m really proud to say that we move very quickly on that and I think effectively.

    Dr. Sharp: That’s fantastic. Wow. You host a variety of roles or something.

    Dr. Joseph: Yeah. As a psychologist, there aren’t boring days. There’s quite a bit of work to do.

    Dr. Sharp: That’s true. Let’s talk about the assessment and what that looks like. I want to know is it much different from what [00:33:00] assessment looks like in a U.S. school?

    Dr. Joseph: I would say fairly similar. I have access to all the instruments that I did in the U.S. I think the main difference, Jeremy, is that even though we have an international or an American-based curriculum, we’re not under the auspices of the Department of Education or a state department. We’re a private school. Obviously, we’re abroad, so we have quite a bit of leeway in terms of how we’re delivering some educational models as that relates to to special education process. We certainly do our best to follow IDEA and section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act and and using those federal guidelines to implement [00:34:00] IEPs and ensure that a child with a disability is getting appropriate services.

    With that said, we are not able to provide interventions to every type of students. I think we serve children with mild and moderate needs fairly well, and I’ll give some examples of that, but students who, let’s say, are in the need of some significant special education services, we frankly can’t provide. We can’t provide quality services for students who are maybe are in that severe need level.

    Dr. Sharp: Got you. Could you provide some examples of what that might look like? When you say moderate, severe in your setting?

    Dr. Joseph: When we’re talking about maybe [00:35:00] mild needs, we’re talking about a student who maybe needs basically a 504 plan and we’re talking about extended time on tests, copies of notes, and maybe some teacher strategies. We might have a child who has mild attention deficit and they need some accommodations in the classroom to help redirect and focus and really work through that attention difficulty.

    Moving more towards the the moderate needs students, we’re probably looking at students who have a diagnosed learning disability and they do need some remediation. So we have an Orton-Gillingham program. Children will be pulled out individually or in groups. We have a full time speech language pathologist. We consider that moderate range a child is getting speech and language therapy.

    We also have a really strong [00:36:00] occupational therapy program mainly in the elementary school. So we would also consider that maybe a moderate service where children are getting occupational therapy.

    Once we start getting into making academic modifications; modifying what a child is required to do in the classroom, we start to consider them as potentially a student that is not a good fit for our school. Again, being a private school, we don’t accept everybody. When I worked in a public school, of course, we accepted everybody and we had the resources to service students who were maybe in that severe need and develop therapeutic programs and ABA programs for [00:37:00] children on the spectrum. We had those resources, but quite frankly, we don’t have the resources right now to service some of those children with significant needs.

    Dr. Sharp: I see. Where might you refer those families in those cases?

    Dr. Joseph: My second year here. That has been probably my biggest professional challenge and even quite heartbreaking when the school leadership has determined that when we have an existing student, it’s even more difficult than maybe a student who’s applying, that we’re not the best fit and we can’t provide an effective education for that child because we know that there are really limited options in Moscow for servicing children, let’s say with severe learning disability or autism or [00:38:00] cognitive impairment. We’re in a tough spot in those situations. And I think the school leadership has taken the position to work with integrity in saying, we understand that maybe there aren’t the best options out there like they are in the US, but we don’t feel like we can provide an education.

    I support that decision because we really don’t have, like I said, special education services where we’re modifying the curriculum and providing maybe some intensive services for some of these students. I think we’re pretty good with providing the services and accommodations for children that need some extra support. So, that’s been a challenge this year, Jeremy.

    Dr. Sharp: It sounds like it. I could see that being really [00:39:00] tough to deliver that news to a family.

    Dr. Joseph: Absolutely.

    Dr. Sharp: I think that a lot of us, we struggle with that here, if there are resources that a kiddo or family needs that just aren’t available. That’s always a hard conversation. I imagine there’s some parallels to that in your setting as well.

    Dr. Joseph: Yeah, absolutely.

    Dr. Sharp: While I’m thinking about it, and we’re on this topic, do much about the non school psychological services over there in terms of, are there private practitioners or agencies that do psychological assessment or neuropsychological testing there? And if so, what’s that look like?

    Dr. Joseph: Yeah. In Moscow, there is a medical clinic. It’s called the European Medical Center. They have English speaking physicians. They also have a few English speaking psychologists. One in particular I know [00:40:00] who does neuropsychological assessments is a Russian psychologist but he’s fluent in English. They’ve been a good resource for us. But in terms of doing those traditional psychoeducational evaluations and getting them done in English and also having them be conducted in a way that it’s useful for the school to understand the child and understands his or her needs and to implement some special education services, those are very difficult to find in Moscow.

    As I mentioned, I’m the only psychologist in our school and I think I’m the only English speaking psychologist in all the international schools in Moscow that I’m aware of. So we have a dearth of psychological resources for English speaking [00:41:00] clientele in Russia, for sure.

    Dr. Sharp: I see. Within your school, what does the special ed process look like? Is it similar to a U.S. school where in terms of how kids get referred for evaluation and then the meetings and…

    Dr. Joseph: Yeah, we have a lot of meetings.

    Dr. Sharp: Good to know those things don’t change. 

    Dr. Joseph: Yeah, that doesn’t change across the border. I would say, Jeremy, it’s fairly similar to my work in the US in terms of a teacher. Usually, the referral comes from a teacher. The only difference I see is parents were requesting evaluations more frequently in the United States, but we have a child study team. It’s a committee where we listen to teacher concerns and then based on that meeting, we make a [00:42:00] determination if I start the assessment process. It starts from that referral committee, which is made up of the administrator or a few administrators, the child’s guidance counselor, and the classroom teacher.

    Dr. Sharp: I see. That sounds good. Do y’all have an MTSS process or structure there to deliver intervention or is it less formal than that? MTSS, the Multi-Tiered System of Supports, the tier 1 tier 2 tier 3 in terms of intervention in schools or RTI. It used to be called RTI.

    Dr. Joseph: RTI. Yeah. We are, as I mentioned, international schools are a bit behind in special education delivery service models. So in terms [00:43:00] of RTI, we are moving to that. That’s something that I had advocated for when I came aboard. I felt like it was needed and probably given some of the… how we’re delivering, I felt it would be the most efficient way to deliver services to our children. So we’re making some attempts to move to that RTI model, for sure. 

    Dr. Sharp: I see. Jumping back out to the private sector, if that’s what you want to call it, what does the health insurance situation look like in Russia? If people did want to go for outside services, are those covered or is it private pay? Do you know what that looks like? 

    Dr. Joseph: For the locals, for Russians, I’m not quite sure about that. I think they have access. The state provides access to a baseline of [00:44:00] medical services.  But if you’re looking at psychological services, assuming you’re not institutionalized, if you’re looking for self-development or strategies that work with anxiety, I’m not exactly sure if that is picked up by insurance or if they have to pay out of pocket.

    Within the expat community, I know, for example, let’s take American diplomats, they certainly have health coverage and that coverage tends to allow them to obtain psychological services with reimbursement. 

    Dr. Sharp: Great.

    Dr. Joseph: So the expat community is in a good position in terms of reimbursement, but as I mentioned earlier, it’s the access to in-person [00:45:00] resources. You had mentioned teletherapy before and I’m finding that quite a number of people in our expat community are determining that that’s their best option here in Moscow. If they live in Australia then link up with on Skype with with an Australian therapist.

    Dr. Sharp: I can see that. This time has opened the world up for telehealth services. Like I said, my wife was also a therapist and she’s been getting inquiries from individuals living abroad, which is interesting and funny to us, but it seems like people are open to that now.

    What else would people benefit from knowing about being a school psychologist in an international school that I maybe haven’t asked about? 

    Dr. Joseph: I think we’ve covered a fair amount. [00:46:00] I think the main thing is you’re going to have to go, if somebody out there who’s interested in this, you have to go into it knowing that the community that you’re going to be working in, you may not have a lot of collegial support from other psychologists. So it’s really important for me to maintain some of those relationships I’ve developed over my career in the United States in terms of supervision or just running something by some people that I trust because, as I mentioned, I feel like I’m maybe the only American psychologist in Moscow and that could be certainly isolating. I have my teacher colleagues and counselor colleagues, and it’s great, we collaborate all the time and that’s valuable, but getting let’s say running something by another school psychologist where in [00:47:00] United States, I was able to just walk down the next office, I don’t have that. So I think that’s a challenge that people need to be aware of.

    Dr. Sharp: I’m glad that you highlighted that. It seems like the, I don’t know if you call it isolation, but that variety of feeling is happening both culturally, but also within the school and so knowing that someone might need to be prepared for that and willing to reach out or maintain the connection with folks in the U.S.

    Dr. Joseph: For sure.

    Dr. Sharp: Just thinking about people who might be interested in pursuing this path. Are there other resources, places to look, ways to do research, anything that could help start moving in this direction?

    Dr. Joseph: There is an International School Psychology Association. People can find [00:48:00] that through a Google search. They’re a good resource. If people are interested in school psychology specifically, then I would start with the two organizations I mentioned before, International School Services and Search Associates.

    I remember when I first started my search for international positions, I didn’t find anything outside of this international school community. So if there are clinical psychologists that would like to work abroad, schools are nice, but I don’t want to work there, I want to work in a hospital or a clinic, I honestly haven’t found any great resources for that. I think you’d have to narrow your focus on where you want to be and then start looking at expatriate medical centers like I mentioned before, the one we have in [00:49:00] Moscow, the European Medical Center. 

    I still think that there’s a great need for, in my two years, I’m seeing a great need for competent psychologists who can provide services to the expat community and also locals who are proficient in English. That’s certainly an area of high need as well. As I mentioned, I think some of the standards and requirements, and I know some of the standards and requirements for licensing as a psychologist in Russia are, there isn’t a comparison with North America, for example.

    Licensing as I know it as a psychologist in Russia may require even less than an undergraduate degree. And sometimes [00:50:00] it seems like just attending an Institute and that could be a week or two of training and then you’re hanging up a shingle. So when we’re talking about just making sure you’re seeing somebody who has… what we consider appropriate credentials in the Western world there are some vast differences.

    Dr. Sharp: I see. It’s good to keep in mind. I do have one more question as I’m thinking through things. You mentioned earlier that you have students from, you say, 50 different countries.

    Dr. Joseph: Yeah, a little over 50 countries. 

    Dr. Sharp: How does that work in terms of assessment with all of those students? I would imagine there’s a variety of languages and cultures. How do you navigate that?

    Dr. Joseph: We have a strong ESL program. So if a student comes in it or not, they’re not speaking English [00:51:00] fluently, we provide really intensive English language learning resources, so we really want to get them up to speed. And even in fact, that’s probably an as I’m aware, an entrance admissions requirement that they, unless we’re talking about, we’re considering somebody who’s maybe in preschool, but older students certainly need to be proficient in English. So that minimizes a little bit of some of those assessment difficulties.

    With that said, I think we opened up our discussion today about the cultural language differences and how important that is. I certainly when I’m doing an assessment and I’m coming to conclusions and writing to my report, I always take into consideration this child’s cultural history, their language, and sometimes that’s really challenging when we’re looking to identify a specific learning [00:52:00] disability or an attention difficulty, we really have to look at that interaction of English language acquisition and how fluent is that student in using English in reading and writing.

    I have to admit. There are some times where at least I feel somewhat of a pressure, maybe even to make a diagnosis where I’m not confident that I can’t rule out the possibility that this is really an ESL thing. So there’ve been a few instances where I had to really stand my ground and say we need to allow this child more time. Let’s get it another six months before we really go down that road of assessment because I want to make sure that we’re assessing a child and we’re getting valid results.

    Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. I’m glad to hear you say that. I know that those examples are out there. You got to stand your ground sometimes. We’re [00:53:00] having a lot of discussion here in the US right now, of course, about culture and race and how that’s impacting assessment and how necessary it is to be mindful of those factors as we make diagnoses.

    Dr. Joseph: If I could add on to that point too, when I do these assessments, I like to emphasize to parents that the normative data is predominantly, or it may even be exclusively from North America, from the United States. So let’s say I’m assessing a child from Indonesia, and I’m getting what I think are interesting results, and I’m going to come to a conclusion on a diagnosis, I have to be really mindful that they don’t fit the normative data culturally. For example, if we’re using a WISC, it’s the best instrument, or the Woodcock Johnson, the best instrument for [00:54:00] assessing Cognitive ability and achievement. However, we just have to be mindful that those children don’t have the same cultural language experiences as the children in the United States, and that can certainly have an effect on the results.

    Dr. Sharp: That’s a really important point to highlight. That’s always a thread that runs through our assessments, right?

    Dr. Joseph: Absolutely.

    Dr. Sharp: Gosh. This has been a fascinating discussion. I know that we could continue to talk for a long time. I hope this has given some introduction to folks who are considering this path. It’s super interesting and it seems like you’re enjoying it. That’s the important thing.

    Dr. Joseph: It’s been a wonderful experience professionally and personally. I don’t regret a minute of it. So it’s been fantastic. If any [00:55:00] psychologists, clinical/school psychologists want to reach out to me, when you do your summary or description of this, feel free to put my contact information. I’d be happy to be a resource to them. 

    Dr. Sharp: Great. I was going to ask, so thank you for preempting that question. We’ll definitely put your contact info in the show notes so that people could reach out. I would imagine people might have questions. Awesome.

    Joseph, thanks for your time. This was this is truly enjoyable.

    Dr. Joseph: My pleasure, Jeremy. Thank you for having me.

    Dr. Sharp: Hey y’all, thanks again for tuning in to my episode with Dr. Joseph Graybill. There are plenty of links in the show notes if you want to do some research and start to figure out if working in an international school could be a good fit for you. I know that I spent some time with these links after our conversation, and it’s really just kept it in the front of my mind as a possibility [00:56:00] for a little ways down the road. We’ll see.

    All right. Stay tuned. I will be coming to you with more clinical episodes now that our international series is done. As always, you can expect a business episode this Thursday. We’ll be talking about typical tasks that are good for a virtual assistant to take on in a testing practice.

    If you have not subscribed to the podcast, I would certainly invite you to do so. You can hit follow on Spotify or subscribe and iTunes. And if you like what you hear, drop a five-star rating on iTunes. It’s really easy. You just click on your rating and it punches it in just like that. If you have any suggestions for feedback or are tempted to give it less than five stars, shoot me a message and let me know why; jeremy@thetestingpsychologist.com.

    All right, y’all. My [00:57:00] pleasure as always. I will catch you next time.

    The information contained in this podcast and on The Testing Psychologist website are intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for professional, psychological, psychiatric, or medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please note that no doctor-patient relationship is formed here, and similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host or guests of this podcast and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of any mental health practitioner [00:58:00] or medical provider, Please seek one in your area. Similarly, if you need supervision on clinical matters, please find a supervisor with expertise that fits your needs.

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  • 133: International Assessments Series #3: School Psychology in Russia w/ Dr. Joseph Graybill

    133: International Assessments Series #3: School Psychology in Russia w/ Dr. Joseph Graybill

    Would you rather read the transcript? Click here.

    Welcome to the last episode in our international assessment series! Dr. Joseph Graybill is conducting assessments at a school in Moscow, Russia, where he has lived and worked for the last two years after moving from New Jersey. We talk through the ins and outs of being an expat school psychologist, which I find completely fascinating. Some of the topics we cover include:

    • How to find international school psychologist jobs
    • What the application process looks like
    • Questions to ask when evaluating a potential international employer/school
    • Similarities and differences between US and international school psychologist work

    Cool Things Mentioned

    CE Opportunity – Webinar on Remote Assessment!

    I’m speaking alongside Dr. Ryan Matchullis in a webinar titled, “Psychological Assessment of Children During COVID-19: The Nuts & Bolts.” This event is co-sponsored by Build Great Teams and the Psychologists’ Association of Alberta. Register here: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/psychological-assessment-of-children-during-covid-19-the-nuts-and-bolts-registration-109549260788. Hope to see you there!

    The Testing Psychologist podcast is approved for CEU’s!

    I’ve partnered with At Health to offer CE credits for podcast episodes! Visit this link to access current and past episodes available for CE credit. You can use code “TTP10” for a discount on ALL the course credits you purchase from At Health!

    About Dr. Joseph Graybill

    Joseph Graybill, Ph.D. is a licensed psychologist and certified school psychologist.

    After completing his Master’s degree at Columbia University and Ph.D. at Fordham University, Dr. Graybill worked as a school psychologist in a New Jersey public school and in private practice. Currently, he is the psychologist at the Anglo-American school in Moscow and maintains a Teletherapy practice.

    About Dr. Jeremy Sharp

    I’m a licensed psychologist and Clinical Director at the Colorado Center for Assessment & Counseling, a private practice that I founded in 2009 and grew to include 12 licensed clinicians, three clinicians in training, and a full administrative staff. I earned my undergraduate degree in Experimental Psychology from the University of South Carolina before getting my Master’s and PhD in Counseling Psychology from Colorado State University. These days, I specialize in psychological and neuropsychological evaluation with kids and adolescents.

    As the host of the Testing Psychologist Podcast, I provide private practice consulting for psychologists and other mental health professionals who want to start or grow psychological testing services in their practices. I live in Fort Collins, Colorado with my wife (also a therapist) and two young kids.

    Ready to grow your testing services? Click below to schedule a complimentary 30-minute pre-consulting call!

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  • 132: When Do You Need a Virtual Assistant?

    132: When Do You Need a Virtual Assistant?

    Would you rather read the transcript? Click here.

    We’ve talked a few times about virtual assistants here on the podcast, but really, I can’t say enough about them. Remember last week when I mentioned how people often ask how I get so much done? Well, the truth is that I’m not personally doing as much as it looks like I’m doing. A big part of my task management and productivity is having assistants. In fact, one of the first things that I’ll talk about with coaching clients is getting a VA or in-house assistant set up to help with mundane, non-clinical tasks. I currently have two VA’s for the Testing Psychologist and another editor for the podcast. 

    So when do you need to consider a VA or in-house assistant? Here are just a few clues:

    • You just started a practice
    • You’d rather not pay your own hourly rate for practice management services
    • You feel overwhelmed with your responsibilities
    • You feel bored with certain parts of your day

    Cool Things Mentioned

    CE Opportunity – Webinar on Remote Assessment!

    I’m speaking alongside Dr. Ryan Matchullis in a webinar titled, “Psychological Assessment of Children During COVID-19: The Nuts & Bolts.” This event is co-sponsored by Build Great Teams and the Psychologists’ Association of Alberta. Register here: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/psychological-assessment-of-children-during-covid-19-the-nuts-and-bolts-registration-109549260788. Hope to see you there!

    The Testing Psychologist podcast is approved for CEU’s!

    I’ve partnered with At Health to offer CE credits for podcast episodes! Visit this link to access current and past episodes available for CE credit. You can use code “TTP10” for a discount on ALL the course credits you purchase from At Health!

    About Dr. Jeremy Sharp

    I’m a licensed psychologist and Clinical Director at the Colorado Center for Assessment & Counseling, a private practice that I founded in 2009 and grew to include 12 licensed clinicians, three clinicians in training, and a full administrative staff. I earned my undergraduate degree in Experimental Psychology from the University of South Carolina before getting my Master’s and PhD in Counseling Psychology from Colorado State University. These days, I specialize in psychological and neuropsychological evaluation with kids and adolescents.

    As the host of the Testing Psychologist Podcast, I provide private practice consulting for psychologists and other mental health professionals who want to start or grow psychological testing services in their practices. I live in Fort Collins, Colorado with my wife (also a therapist) and two young kids.

    Ready to grow your testing services? Click below to schedule a complimentary 30-minute pre-consulting call!

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  • 132 Transcript

    [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Testing Psychologist podcast, the podcast where we talk all about the business and practice of psychological and neuropsychological assessment. I’m your host, Dr. Jeremy Sharp, licensed psychologist, group practice owner, and private practice coach.

    All right, y’all, welcome back to another business episode. Today’s episode is all about trying to figure out when you might need a virtual assistant or any assistant in your practice. If you’ve been listening to the podcast for any amount of time, you know that I’m a big fan of virtual assistance and assistance in general. And I’m going to be talking today, not so much about the nuts and bolts of hiring or delegating to a virtual assistant, but just helping you walk through the process of deciding whether you need a virtual assistant or not.

    The spoiler is that I think you need a virtual assistant like yesterday, but I’m going to help you think through that process and figure out when might be the right time to [00:01:00] hire a virtual assistant in your practice.

    Before we get to the episode, I want to let y’all know about an event coming up that I will be speaking at. I am speaking at a webinar co-sponsored by Build Great Teams and the Psychologists’ Association of Alberta. The webinar is called Psychological Assessment of Children During COVID-19. And we’re going to be talking all about the nuts and bolts of remote assessment.

    I am co-presenting with Dr. Ryan Matchullis, who is a registered psychologist in Calgary, Alberta. He specializes in working with kids with developmental concerns and really complex developmental issues. He will be going into significant detail about how to conduct remote assessment with kids who might be a little more challenging. So, if that’s interesting to you, [00:02:00] check it out. The link will be in the show notes.

    You will have the opportunity to get free CE credits from this event. And we’d love to see you there. So again, link in the show notes. Check that out if you’re interested.

    All right, on to our episode on when you might need a virtual assistant.

    Okay, y’all, I am back talking all about when you might want to start thinking about a virtual assistant. So the short answer is basically yesterday is when you need to start thinking about a virtual assistant. I’m going to keep this short and sweet and explain exactly why.

    A lot of us get wrapped [00:03:00] up in the idea that we have to do everything when we get started in practice and as we continue in our practice, we kind of have hero syndrome in a way, thinking that we are the only ones that can do certain tasks, as well as they, need to be done. A few of these things might be: answering the phone is a big one, scheduling people, selling your evaluation services, managing finances or bills, scoring testing materials.

    I could go on and on, but there are any number of tasks in our practices that we hold onto for way too long. And for the vast majority of practice owners that I talked to, that’s because there is a fear involved. I think it’s always fear underneath that if we let go of things, if we let go of that control that we think we have over all of these tasks [00:04:00] by doing them ourselves, then we’re going to somehow sacrifice the quality of our work or our reputation, and it’s going to cause our practices to tank.

    I’ve been there. Let me say that right off the bat. I continue to struggle with letting things go. It is really, really hard. And I’ve said many times in coaching sessions how we are basically rewarded for 18 plus years of schooling for many of us to believe that we work hard, we do everything ourselves, we are basically as perfect as we can be in any sort of achievement or performance-based task. And we get rewarded for that with good grades and recognition and so forth or a Ph.D. And so, when we get into practice, then it is really, [00:05:00] really challenging to let that go and say to ourselves, maybe I don’t have to do this just because I can. I don’t have to be an overachiever and take care of absolutely everything in this practice.

    So, I just want to acknowledge that, yes, it’s easy to say, okay, you need a virtual assistant yesterday. And I know that for many of us, there is certainly an emotional process to work through here, to think about letting go and turning this very important part of your life and your livelihood over to someone else. So, I totally get that. And I want to honor that and know that it’s a tough process.

    What I’m going to try to do is just present a little bit of information to get you thinking about a VA if you’re not already. And if you already have a VA, maybe thinking about what else [00:06:00] you could delegate to that person.

    So, the short answer again, when do you need a virtual assistant? I would argue that you need a virtual assistant from the moment you open your practice. And here’s why. Whether you are private pay or insurance-based, particularly if you’re insurance-based, there is a very clear, defined set of tasks that you get paid for. In testing, this means you get paid to do intake appointments, testing appointments which involve test administration and scoring, you get paid to do a feedback session, you get paid to write the report, and you get paid to do collateral interviews and record reviews. So, that’s a pretty well-defined set of things that you literally get paid to do.

    So, if you just start with that basis, then any other tasks that [00:07:00] you’re doing in your practice, you are not getting paid to do, right? 

    I know you can make an argument. Well, if I answer the phones, then that’s lead acquisition and that’s going to bring in money for the practice. Yeah, that is absolutely true. But you aren’t literally getting paid to do that job. So, I want you to start thinking about really any task outside of your clinical work or, of course, if you’re doing workshops or getting paid to speak and things like that, that’s a different story. But generally speaking, any other tasks that you are doing in your practice you are not getting paid to do.

    And so by virtue of that fact, you are essentially paying yourself or using the time that it would take, using up your own time at a rate equivalent to whatever your average [00:08:00] reimbursement rate is. That might be $100 an hour. That might be $150 an hour. That might be $300 an hour depending on your practice and where you’re at and how you structure things.

    So just think about that for a second. If you’re answering the phones, if you are making copies, if you are sending out questionnaires for your evaluations over email, you are in essence paying yourself whatever your hourly rate is to do that task because it’s taking away from other time that you could be spending where you actually get paid to do it.

    And let me tell you all, we are among some of the highest paid professionals in the world of working professionals. There, aren’t a ton of people who bill $100, $150, $200, $300 an hour. [00:09:00] I can’t think of any administrative or clerical task that you would pay someone that much money to do. The only thing that really approaches that would be something like a web design or, of course, legal services and things like that. But administrative tasks, answering the phone, clerical tasks, copies, et cetera, there is no way that you would pay someone that much to do those tasks. So you are in essence, the most overpaid administrative assistant anytime you choose to take those tasks on.

    All right. Obviously, I think you’re going to notice it I recorded the first part of this episode in one location and now I have moved to another location. Sound engineering is magical, but sometimes not that magical. So here we are.

    So, if you are overpaying yourself for administrative services, [00:10:00] that is a great reason to think about a VA. Other reasons that are equally important and also equally likely to happen when you are either starting out in your practice or have even been in your practice for a bit, or just feeling overwhelmed with your responsibilities. So again, operating from this idea that you should really be doing clinical work and that is about it, the chances are your schedule is filled up with other activities that are less crucial for you to be doing and yet nonetheless, fill the time and contribute to you feeling overwhelmed.

    When I’ve pulled The Testing Psychologist Community and my email list, it’s really clear that people are just desperate for tools to make report writing more efficient and to manage their time better. There are plenty of tools out there [00:11:00] that can help you, but when we get right down to it, I like to work with folks to figure out why you don’t have enough time to do the thing that is most important for you to be doing in the first place, which is the clinical work and writing the reports that showcase our specialized knowledge that goes above and beyond other mental health professionals. So, when you feel overwhelmed with your responsibilities, that’s a great signal that you need to be thinking about an assistant.

    Now, one other component to be thinking about is, if there are certain parts of your day or parts of your practice that you feel bored with. So if you feel bored, the likelihood is that you are not going to be motivated to do those tasks. And those tasks are likely going to fall by the wayside. A correlate of feeling bored is feeling avoidant [00:12:00] or feeling scared or feeling nervous about certain things.

    For a lot of us, this might be something like collecting fees or calling insurance, or sending out statements or doing financial components with our clients. That’s something that I fell prey to early on in my practices. I didn’t like talking to people about money and trying to request payment. So, that got ignored for a little while, and it really came back to bite me. So, if you notice any of those feelings going on, those are also good signals that you need to start thinking about how to delegate some of your tasks.

    Otherwise, I don’t think there’s a right time in your practice to think about a VA. I joked at the beginning that the time was yesterday, but there’s really some truth to that, to be honest. I would be thinking [00:13:00] about an assistant from the moment you think about opening your practice because from the beginning, there are going to be tasks that you don’t want to do and should not be doing. I love the idea of bootstrapping and did it for a long time. And when we just get down to the return on investment, a VA is well worth it.

    All right, so quick and dirty episode just on when to be considering a VA. Like I said, this is the first of a little two-part mini-series. In the next business episode coming next Thursday, we’ll be talking more in-depth about what kind of tasks would be appropriate for a VA in a testing practice.

    So, if you’re not subscribed to the podcast, jump into whatever podcast listener you use and hit the subscribe button or the follow button and Spotify so that you can [00:14:00] stay tuned and not miss any of these upcoming episodes.

    And if you’re an advanced practice owner who maybe has an assistant or is thinking about an assistant or thinking about hiring other folks in your practice, the Advanced Practice Mastermind is going to start in September. This will be the third cohort of the Advanced Practice Mastermind. This is a group coaching experience where I provide facilitation and guidance for a group of six psychologists, all in the advanced stages of practice.

    It’s been really cool in the past to see people connect and level up their practices over the course of our group. So, if that sounds interesting to you, you can go to thetestingpsychologist.com/advanced, get more information and apply to be in the group.

    All right, y’all, like I mentioned at the beginning as well, if you are looking for a CE opportunity and want to hear some fantastic information [00:15:00] on remote assessment, really getting into the nuts and bolts in how to do it, particularly with really challenging kids, check out the webinar I’m going to be co-presenting on. This will be in August with the Psychologist’ Association of Alberta and Build Great Teams. The link is in the show notes. I hope to see you there.

    All right, y’all, take care. I’ll be back on Monday with our next clinical episode.

    The information contained in this podcast and on The Testing Psychologists website is intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for [00:16:00] professional, psychological, psychiatric, or medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

    Please note that no doctor-patient relationship is formed here, and similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host or guests of this podcast and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of any mental health practitioner or medical provider, please seek one in your area.

    Similarly, if you need supervision on clinical matters, please find a supervisor with expertise that fits your needs.

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