Dr. Jeremy Sharp (00:01)
Hey everyone, welcome back to the testing psychologist. I’m so glad to be here with you and glad to share this episode with you. This is a crossover episode, so you will notice I am not the host of this episode. This is a recording that I did with my friend, Dr. Tara Vassen Kemper. Tara has been on the podcast a couple times before. She is incredibly candid, super engaging, and I was lucky to get to chat with her on her own podcast, which she calls the owner’s room.
Her podcast is actually called the culture focused practice, but this is a special ⁓ series that she does called the owner’s room, where we have pretty candid conversations about running a practice and our identity as leaders and things like that. So Tara is here. We dug deep into what it means to slow down as a business owner and some of the emotional whiplash that can come with choosing rest over productivity. This is a pretty real
unscripted conversation, which is Tara’s typical style. That’s what I love about talking with her. We just followed the threads wherever they might go and talk pretty openly just about identity and achievement and ⁓ grief and sort of restless energy that happens when things get quiet. So ⁓ lots to take away from this, I think. And it was just a enjoyable conversation for me. So with that, I will share with you
This episode of the Culture Focused Practice with Dr. Tara Vossenkemper Kemper. .
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (01:31)
Hi, Dr. Tara Vossenkemper here and you are listening to the Culture Focus Practice podcast. Thank you for being here with me. Thank you for joining me. Today marks my favorite type of episode, the owner’s room. The focus is slowing down and this is the first time in the entirety of this podcast that I have a guest on. ⁓ Okay, so joining me is Dr. Jeremy Sharp, who I met randomly from Facebook and we just hit it off. Like met, talked shop.
hit it off. So it’s just awesome that he’s here with me. And let me just tell you a quick about him. So licensed psychologist, director at the Colorado Center for Assessment, which is a multimillion dollar private practice. There is a focus on psychological and neuropsych evals with kids and adolescents that was founded in 2009. And it was right sized about a year ago, which we’re going to talk about today as part of the slowing down conversation. He’s also, as you very well may know,
the host of the Testing Psychologist podcast, and also a consultant for clinicians. I feel like those things go hand in hand, like podcasting and consulting. So he does a lot of private practice coaching for psychologists and other mental health professionals who want to start or grow assessment services in their practices. Lastly, most importantly, not really, but lastly, in 2020, he partnered with a software developer to co-found Reverb, which is an AI report writing platform.
testing psychologists and this helps with writing faster and better reports and I think it goes without saying but getting their time back for what matters most. So really awesome Jeremy Rocks I’m super happy he’s here. Welcome Jeremy I’m glad to have you here thank you for being here with me.
This is exciting. Yeah. Okay, so as you all may know or not know, this is the owner’s room. So this is a space where we don’t have any perfect answers and none of this is scripted and we basically just get real about what it’s like to lead a practice. So this episode is all about emotional whiplash of choosing to slow down or related to choosing to slow down. So basically when you finally pause and then you…
immediately question, what the fuck am I doing? Like, what have I done? Why am I not doing more? Why am I not working more or harder or later or longer or fill in the blank? So we are basically going to unpack the mental noise just by virtue of having a conversation about things and talk about what it takes to hold stillness without losing your center. Before we go further, hit subscribe.
The more you like this, the more you subscribe, I should say, if it resonates with you, the more it reaches like-minded people who also need the same message. So thank you in advance. Let’s do it. The agenda item, we have two items on the agenda. One is that we’re going to go through a series of questions we have not practiced. Two, we’re going to do a little scenario. And so we’ll do a real life scenario and then talk through maybe how we might handle this if it came up. So boom. You ready, Jeremy? Let’s do it. Okay.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (04:36)
Let’s do it.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (04:39)
Because you are the guest, I’m going to ask questions and I’ll probably have you talk first, but then we’ll just go from there. All right. Okay, question number one. What does falling behind in quotes actually mean to you and is it true?
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (04:44)
Yeah, great.
Yes. These questions seem so simple. I read them from her and now all of sudden it’s complicated. Yeah. What does falling behind mean to me? To me there’s a couple components of falling behind. So there’s sort of big picture falling behind of, I’m not doing enough in terms of visioning for the business. They’re, you know, I’m not making big plans. don’t have any like grand.
grand projects in the works or anything like that. So sort of a, you call it complacency around leading. But then there’s also the day to day falling behind for me, which is too many emails in the inbox and not responding to people on time. And, ⁓ you know, maybe I’m not doing things that I said I was going to do by a certain date or whatever it may be. And so there’s all of that. I don’t know if that’s
You know, if the practical pieces like that are able to be separated from the emotional piece, but there’s also an emotional component of just like feeling behind and like I’m just not doing enough somehow. So, uh, it’s all those things for me. What about you?
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (06:15)
Yeah, you know what, there’s two thoughts that I have. As you said that, I think that enoughness, I don’t know if that’s like an entrepreneurial thing or like a certain type of person thing, but I absolutely relate to that sense of like, ooh, this, haven’t done enough. Like just enoughness in general. question if I’m doing enough for my team, if I, not usually related to my own effort or maybe like my own work, unless I…
let’s say have a three day stretch where I’m like busy and I can’t get any work done, I start to get like this pent up energy, like I need an output, like I need something to focus on to, you know, chew on. So I, but I do think there’s something about like the enoughness piece, but there was something else that came up for me as you were talking related to like the inbox and the emails. I think it was Cal Newport. I think you know that I love Cal Newport. If you don’t remind, yeah, I love Cal Newport.
And maybe in deep work, he wrote about this guy. I don’t even, I don’t remember the name, but, his name, excuse me. He wrote about this guy who, maybe he was some sort of like scientist, like a physicist or something, you know? He is just intentionally, ⁓ intentionally inept. Like he, he’s like, no, I’m really bad at committees. I shouldn’t be on this one. He like on purpose, bad at doing things.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (07:31)
Excuse me.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (07:34)
Because he knows the value of spending time thinking and working and producing in terms of like concepts and content for what he actually wants to do. Like all of these other things take him away from what he is most valuable doing. And it made me think about that with your inbox where you said sort of like, need to be responding more. ⁓ Maybe I’m not responding enough in this way. And I, you know, I feel like the joke at my own practice, I don’t even think it’s a joke. It’s for real is that my inbox is my vein of my existence.
And sometimes that’s by design where I will not respond because I can’t do this. Like I have other shit that I need to be doing. Obviously urgent things need to be responded to, you know, so that’s a little bit different, but if something’s not urgent, then I just, I’ll get back to it. You know, like I’ll, I’ll go later. And I feel like the, the more I practice that thing, I don’t feel as bad now as I used to about it. I’m like, no, they’ll be fine. They can wait a few days.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (08:30)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. think Cal Newport is also the one, maybe he said that you also, no, I love that guy, that you train people how to interact with you over email and if you respond right away, that just tells them you’re gonna respond right away and they’ll keep emailing you and expect you to respond right away. sounds like you have, you’re training people.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (08:53)
I’m
training people and then putting the right people, know, like having people around where I’m like, this isn’t me, like boop, go talk to them. ⁓
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (09:02)
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (09:07)
I’m sort of jumping. think maybe, I don’t actually know if I am jumping. Maybe this is the point of the structure is we’re going to go where it goes. But it makes me think about your right sizing and how I can say now I have an integrator and I have a DCO and I have a marketing director. And so anybody who comes to me with anything that falls in their camp, I’m immediately going to kick that can over. Like this is not, this does not belong to me. But if you right sized, what roles did you get rid of?
If any and then also like did that impact the way you show up in your work life if that makes sense like in terms of your Availability to others and then also maybe that the notion of like falling behind like I Think I’m asking a question. There’s question there somewhere, right?
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (09:54)
There’s definitely stuff to respond to. So yeah, go with that. Yeah. Yeah. we went from, you know, just for folks who don’t know, probably a lot of folks that we, yeah, peaked at probably 40 bus employees and practitioners and all that. And so we had like a, I don’t know, a three tier leadership team. You know, I was the visionary, you know, we had our second, like our kind of directors level. And then we had, we called them coordinators, you know, underneath the directors and
And then supervisors. So yeah, I mean, there was a lot of leadership in place before this right sizing, which happened about a year ago. And I got rid of all that. So now I’m our director and that’s it. So I’m the director and then everyone just works, you know, everyone’s just like a team member. ⁓ we have, I mean, we still have clinical supervisors and, ⁓ we have one person who is.
we call it, you know, her title is coordinator and she does a little bit more sort of like higher level stuff. But, ⁓ but yeah, I got rid of a lot of that. And, know, it’s been interesting, ⁓ on the whole, think it’s been a really good thing, but there was a trade off for sure, which I kind of made peace with around. do more asks now, like I had to absorb some of those roles that were occupied leadership. Yeah.
but I still feel like I’m working less and with a lot less stress for sure. So yeah, I took back some of those tasks, like some of the integrator tasks for sure. A little bit of supervision, know, so I’m more available to my team now than I was before the rights, I’d say. But it also adds a little bit more and it’s okay. I get this sometimes.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (11:47)
for not getting things done or for falling behind, mean, logistically falling behind, I guess.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (11:54)
Mm hmm. ⁓ yeah. I don’t know if you struggle with this. I definitely struggle with this. Like I want to be the one to ⁓ help people and like be useful and like solve people’s problems and stuff like that. And so ⁓ it’s like a constant trap slash awareness that I have to have to be like, should I actually be doing this or am I just doing this? So I will be like useful and thereby valuable to someone, you know.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (12:21)
my gosh. Yep. Yeah. All the time. I think like, is this actually valuable for others? Is this actually, am I being of service? Am I being useful? I, you I don’t, is this what ends up happening for you? And I’m asking, cause this is typically the, it’s not foot in mouth, but it’s probably car before horse. It’s the shit that I always end up doing to myself where I step in early or I sort of inject myself. And then by nature of stepping in,
It’s almost like I’ve put a, I’m like then a shelf that exists and then people start stacking shit on top. I’m like, oh, now I’m carrying all of this stuff where I shouldn’t even be in this room. Like this shelf doesn’t belong with this decor. Like, go, you know, what are you doing, Tara? But I, I end up making myself of, like I’m part of this function all of a sudden where, why? Because I just wanted to be like, I can help. No, bitch, no, you shouldn’t help. Get out.
Get out. Stay out. Just kidding, to myself. So is that the thing you’re talking about or does yours look different?
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (13:23)
Yeah, yeah, no, it’s putting myself into places that I really shouldn’t be doing things, you know, where I get easily offloaded to our office manager or our scheduling team or something like that. But I just insist on having some amount of involvement and, you know, Jeff, I’ll jump in and all I can take care of that. And, know, that’s that doesn’t make sense. But I do have to feel useful, I think, because then
That gets back to your one of our other questions, which is like feeling agitated when I’m not doing something. so. Defense against.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (14:10)
Okay, so that’s actually a good segue into question two, I think, which is what emotions do you associate with slowing down?
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (14:17)
Oh gosh. Yeah. I mean, we use the term agitation a minute ago and that feels pretty relevant. Yeah. I mean, I do feel agitated, restless, um, can be frustrating at times. Uh, you know, there’s, there’s kind of two sides to it though. Like initially stillness maybe feels pretty good. Like maybe for
don’t know, a couple hours or maybe a day, you know, something like that. But then it gets a little uncomfortable or a lot uncomfortable. then I have to, yeah, then ⁓ it’s really tough. It’s really tough to sit with all of that and just feel bored. Let me tell you, can I tell you a little story though? Just as a side note, and then we’ll see if this relates at all. so this was eight.
months ago at this point. December of 2023, I decided to like purposefully go away for four or five days and I promised myself that I would not do any work whatsoever. It was all just to kind of reflect on what’s going on in the practice. What do we need? This was pre right sizing, but
You know, it was big part of that whole process. So, I mean, I spent four or five days by myself, not working, which is I’ve never done that. I have never done that. Yeah. Like what just happened for you when I…
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (15:58)
Yeah, I’m like, god, that’s why I go away to work like so I can work unencumbered and uninhibited and just follow whatever work when I have so the idea of going away and not like, ⁓ that would be really difficult to do. Like really, really hard to do.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (16:18)
It was brutal. was brutal. And the whole point, you know, it was almost, it wasn’t like a meditation retreat, obviously, but you know, was something, it was kind of like that. But so I have, you know, I took notes or like kind of journal most of the time and it was all just like, this is really hard. I want to be doing things that I feel useless. This is a waste of time. Like, you know, it was startling to see like all the negatives, you know, like everything that came with that.
and ultimately it was great. think it was helpful, but I think it ties into what we’re talking about. So those are the feelings.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (17:00)
That is so funny. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I, this is where I start to get like, be curious about, um, like trait and personality and like, what is that thing? Like obviously, you know, you’re sort of mentioning like, want to, you know, the, the feeling useful. And I think you’ve mentioned previously and outside conversations, but about productivity, which probably is not a shock related to like feeling useful and being a value feels like they’re all like,
like a latent, there’s a latent variable there. They’re all sort of like circling around the same thing. What is that thing? Is there something about like, is there something about diligence within conscientiousness? Is there something about, ⁓ I don’t know, like, it just makes me wonder, like, I’m just curious about what is that, what is that thing? And if there wasn’t work, for example, would there be another outlet? And then for someone like you, or let’s say we both relatively fall in that camp,
What, how do you do something like benefit from slowing down and still, you know, like acknowledge that part of you is never gonna feel comfortable in that space, even if it’s beneficial. Like it doesn’t ever physiologically match with your internal state. You know what I’m saying? Like, it’s such a weird mix. Like it’s such a weird sort of conundrum to be in.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (18:26)
I mean, we could go any number of directions with that. So personality wise, I mean, what is that? It’s for me, I know there’s a mix of neuroticism and conscientiousness, like maybe play a role. Because I feel like I, yeah, I’m like always having to like just get things done for
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (18:46)
Yeah
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (18:52)
It’s a lot of like for people, you know, there’s it’s like tasks for people. ⁓ but then. ⁓
at the risk of being too much of a psychologist, know, mean, it all goes back to family of origin, right? I think, you know, that was definitely how I was, but recognized within my family growing up was like being helpful. And there wasn’t a lot of resting. There was always something to do. You know, I grew up with the kind of like a chronically ill parent, you know, required, I guess, a lot of support, you know? And so,
There was no, there was no resting. And so that’s probably playing into it. yeah, there’s lot going on there, but yeah, it’s all to me like value and self-worth and that kind of stuff. Like, you know, when we get right down to it, I’m probably like, you know, if I’m not being productive or like getting things done and then what value am I bringing to anything?
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (19:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, that’s so wild. Yes, especially again, like in the context of this episode in particular, sort of this notion of slowing down. This is not a question for right now, I don’t think, but it sort of makes me think about when something like slowing down, for example, pushes directly up against like something like either a core wound or maybe a ⁓ core sort of relatively static trait, you know, or some sort of trauma or like, what do you…
What do you do? You know, there’s this weird, again, because you think, okay, well, slowing down has benefits. And potentially, like you’re saying 18 months ago, you had this four or five day, not meditative retreat, but like self-imposed retreat where you didn’t allow yourself to work. And my question in my head is one of the questions as you were talking was like, ooh, I wonder if that’s a huge part of the decision to right size or if the right sizing realization maybe came from that stillness, came from not allowing yourself.
to really work? Like you’re just sort of sitting and potentially thinking and then six months later now you’re making this big shift. Like you’re making a huge shift that influences a bunch of other people but is what is best for you and the remaining people at the group. And so yeah, think maybe it sort of makes me wonder, okay, if you hadn’t done that thing, would you still be with a 40 person team, for example? Would you have realized at that juncture that
you needed to right size, like this is what was best. do you, know, like hypothetically it would have happened at some point in the future, but do you think it helped? Do you know what I mean? Do you think it helped that come to fruition or helped clarify that for you to be able to sit in that stillness?
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (21:39)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. It definitely clarified it and accelerated it. Yeah. I mean, I think before that I had maybe considered the possibility of right sizing, but doing that, you know, that time away really helped to clarify that and made it more real. And I was able to think through what it look like and just recognize, yeah, what it was like to not feel.
Simply label well.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (22:09)
Yeah, goodness gracious. Yeah. Okay, so then how about this? I have another question. And I think this is a little bit, I think it’s related to what you just were saying, but whose expectations are you carrying when you can’t let yourself pause? It feels like an extension of what we’re just talking about. think that’s where I’m like, oh, let’s, I want to ask this. Let’s go here.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (22:32)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. It’s a tough one because I don’t know that there are explicit expectations. I do think it is tied up a lot into kind of family, family of origin stuff, right? So I don’t know. We’re like going deep on this podcast. You know, it’s I think that’s I mean, I think that’s a big part of it. Now, I didn’t grow up with like explicit expectations from my parents necessarily. They weren’t like.
You know, you have to get straight A’s or you have to be super, you know, productive or, know, they weren’t definitely weren’t like tiger parents or anything like that. but the implicit expectation was like, you’re available at all times, like for family stuff. ⁓ we need you to like take on a lot of responsibility. We need, you know, that’s just like the role that was kind of needed. ⁓ and so.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (23:08)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (23:29)
Then I got wrapped up in, yeah, I think maybe my own expectations along the way of like, have to, you know, maybe, know, this as a business owners, like once you reach, you know, you just keep stepping up and up and up. if there’s not another up, it can feel kind of disappointing or disconcerting.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (23:49)
yeah, disconcerting, yeah. Yep. There’s nothing there, like, so it has to be created or…
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (23:56)
Yeah.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (23:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (24:00)
And then the last component is probably the team, you know, eventually, like as the practice grew, there got to be, you know, I felt like there were expectations from the team, not that anyone had mentioned, you know, in fact, I would ask my team, like, do you all think I’m lazy? Like, is it okay? you know, do you, you know, like, feel like I’m not doing anything. Is that, and they would always be like, what are you talking about? know, that’s an insane.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (24:25)
I’m
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (24:28)
person’s statement like, yeah, so then there was like expectations from the team that were totally unfounded. So that’s a little bit all that wrapped up and what about.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (24:39)
It’s such a mind bug. Yeah, it’s so funny. You saying that I’m thinking about our last, because, you know, we operate on EOS and for those listening, Jeremy’s very familiar. I think to an extent, there’s still EOS that lives in your practice. If not, it’s like full fledged. Yeah. Maybe it was at our last quarterly. it would have been, God, what month are we in? It would have been January-ish. We’re kicking off, you know, the two day. And I think I said something about, is this enough?
Like, we doing enough? Is this good for this year? Like this one year plan, really? Is that enough? And both my integrator and my DCO were all like, yeah, yes. Yep, Tara, this is good. Like, no, don’t take on anymore. Just stop. Just stop. Get some help, you know? I think my perception of enough is just totally fucked. I don’t have any concept of, I genuinely don’t. Like I have no concept of what’s too much.
So I’m like, we can do that, that’s easy. We can do that, we can get that thing done. Okay, like, yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (25:41)
My wife and I talk about this fairly frequently. She’s also a therapist and an entrepreneur. know, she has a practice and podcasts and all this stuff. ⁓ So we have a totally skewed perspective, but sometimes we’re like, like, are there, what are normal people like? Like, are there people out there who just go to work and like work for six or eight hours a day and then you home and are like, cool, let’s relax and I’m pretty content. Does that happen?
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (26:10)
There’s this comedian, Tim Dillon, I don’t know. I don’t know how I know this, but I remember like listening to a clip of him. He was like talking about how your average person, they’re gonna work nine to five, they’re gonna get off, they’re gonna go to Bucky’s, buy a six pack of beer, go home and hang out for the weekend. And it was sort of like this, ⁓ my gosh, that is such a…
crazy concept to me. the idea that you people, a lot of people, I think, I think that a lot of people do feel comfortable doing that, just sort of chilling and like, not that they’re settling in terms of like, you know, you need to reach harder, but like literally feeling internally settled, feeling comfortable with either slower movement or stillness or not like intense pursuit of something and intense, whether like emotionally intense or just like
logistically, physically, like, you know, running after something intense. I can’t, feel like I sprint at life and I’m like gorging myself in the process while I’m sprinting, like on everything I can get my hands on, which is a weird problem to have because it’s also incredible, but not always sustainable. And so, yeah, I do not think that you are probably the norm. I do not think that I’m probably the norm either.
Yeah, no shade in judgment also at people who I fucking wish I could. I wish I could just be fine with a nine to five, like working a normal quote, quote, normal job. And I wish I could. I don’t have it in me. Yeah, it doesn’t exist.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (27:56)
Thank you.
I don’t know if I checked in with you about yeah where that’s coming from like personality stuff or some other influences. What do think?
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (28:12)
Yeah, this is where for me, I feel like I’m not a real therapist sometimes because there so many therapists. I would say even like the education we get is social pressures are like the most, I would say it seems like they are more important than let’s just say like biological or genetic tendencies. I don’t know if I agree with that. I think that there’s obviously social pressures that influence everything.
thing about us in terms of even the way I think some of our phenotypes, some of our gene expression, which is fucking incredible, you know? But I feel like it’s inside of me. Like I’ve never been sort of pressured to move. I just, as a child, you know, my mom will tell the story where it’s like kindergarten, my first day of kindergarten, I’m getting dropped off by the preschool van, because I was at KinderCare and KinderCare is where I went. And I get dropped off and I’m like,
I literally just take off sprinting out of the bus and Miss Debbie was like, Tara, do you know where you’re going? And I like over my shoulder yelled back, no. And I just kept running. That has like, how do you like, what social pressure is getting this five year old to like sprint in the direction of something without having any concept of what is happening or where she’s going. That’s just me in a nutshell, like the epitome of me like growing up.
constantly busy, constantly doing something, and it didn’t ever feel like too much. I never felt like I need to stop, I need to slow down. I just, I like being busy. I like doing things that I enjoy doing, of course. It will reach a fever pitch. will reach a threshold where it’s like, ⁓ no, no, no, no, this is too much. And I have to like, I had to learn to recognize that threshold and then also realize how and where to scale it back.
I don’t know. I don’t feel like it’s social for me at all. I feel like that’s maybe a cop-out answer. And again, I’m always worried about saying something like that, where I don’t know if it’s social, because I feel like sort of a social pariah for voicing that out loud. So is that the most non-answer I’ve ever given? Did I answer that question, Ben?
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (30:26)
think I’ll go with it. I think it’s fine. No, I’m with you. think there was an innate, yeah, we come out with something. We come out of the world. I know that’s true for my kids. mean, my kids are, have been different from day one, you know? And, know, you can make arguments, so we raise them differently, but it’s not that different, I don’t think. Incredibly different personalities. Yeah. There’s something for biological. ⁓
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (30:36)
cream.
There’s gotta be something, yeah. Yeah, maybe not entirely biological determinism, but like, you know, I’m not a genetic essentialist. I’m not that, but I’m also not a total like social conformity or social pressures influence everything. It’s like, if I could make my child do anything, I would love to. Like I wish I had control. Okay, abrupt shift to another question. Hmm, which one? I’m gonna read these, but I feel like we’ve kind of talked about them.
What part of your identity feels most threatened by rest? Sort of the flip side of the coin of like, we feel compelled to do things, but is that the same as like, there’s a part of you that feels threatened by the idea of rest? Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (31:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So I think there’s, I’m trying to go back to like a consistent identity. I think I’ve always had some identity as an achiever for sure. I mean, like I said earlier, my parents never like pressured me to get good grades, but I always did and I loved it. And that was my, that was a big identity for a long time. you know, if anything that’s.
That’s what jumps to mind right away is, you know, if I’m not, if I’m being still, like, what am I achieving? And of course the answer is like, well, you don’t need to always be achieving, but I, you know, that’s the identity to me that feels threatened the most. And then of course, like right underneath that is like, well, if you’re not achieving, then how are you valuable to anybody or anything? so.
You know, those run in tandem, but as far as identities go, think, yeah, the achievers is pretty high up there.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (32:45)
Are you, I forget, you, you’re type three enneagram? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like I, you know, I like the enneagram. I think it’s fun, but I, know, it’s not efficacious. Like it’s fun. It’s, you know, it’s cool. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (32:58)
It’s… blood air you say?
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (33:00)
Yeah, I mean, I feel like it’s There’s no reason.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (33:02)
There’s no research. There’s no research.
There’s no research. Sorry, everybody. I’m sorry. There’s no research behind Enneagram, but it is fun.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (33:11)
It is still fun. It’s still fun. I still will ask people like, you a three? know, like, still, you know, it’s, yeah. So, again, I feel like now we made ourselves both social pariahs. You’ve joined the club, the social pariah. Yeah. So achievement base for you. That’s the identity that feels most threatened. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (33:31)
But it’s also, it’s gotten complicated over time because like the more you achieve, feel like more has kind of come along with that, you know, where like it was a big part. ⁓ That right sizing was really, really hard from an identity perspective, you know, because I had become kind of known in our community as like, man, this person with this large practice and wow, like you’re doing all this, you know, look at everything that you built and all that. don’t know what the.
identity for that is, but it was definitely threatened. Like I was, I had to wrestle with that a lot. Like, what are people going to think of me? Like, I’m not going to be special anymore. Like who, nobody’s going to care, you know, it’s all just the ego stuff, but, but it was real, you know, like you’re going to be a failure. People are going to say,
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (34:11)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, wow. That is so bringing something up for me. ⁓ But even before that, my thought is like, holy shit, that is a huge thinking of like being useful, being valuable to others, ⁓ the achievement sort of identity piece. I didn’t even think about how difficult it must have been to actively step away and almost, I think, cut your practice in half. That’s like…
Wow, I feel like it’s sort of hitting me in a different way hearing you say that. That is a like a huge shift. That’s a huge shift. Yeah, especially with those factors. yeah, with those pieces.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (34:54)
Okay.
Mm-hmm. There’s something. Well, you know, you’re in this community. Like you go to conferences and stuff and people are like always like measuring practice sizes, right? You know, oh, how many employees that you know, what’s your practice like? mean, there’s a lot wrapped up to be like 40, 45, you know, and now it’s like 15.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (35:22)
Yeah, on purpose. It’s like intentionally you have to like get the qualifier. On purpose, I chose 15. Like this is the number that I want. Yeah, I think I’ve had people not work with me because I didn’t have a big enough practice, which is funny to me because even at my size, like the way the structure, our infrastructure is so just spot on. So it’s, it holds clout. It’s like having a PhD and I know plenty of people with PhDs who are, you know, they’re assholes, but that’s not very nice to say even if it is true. And, um,
It still holds weight. Like somebody sees PhD or they see MD and it’s like, my God. You know, it’s, there’s some like weight behind it. Yeah, some prestige. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think there is something to be said for like the size of the practice when somebody’s actively asking you about things, there’s maybe not judgment in a negative way, but some sort of like judgment or assessment of you based on your extension, you know, this extension of you, your group practice that you
own and run and the number of people that are a part of it. Yeah, that’s interesting. I was trying to think, I don’t know what identity, what part of your identity feels most threatened by rest. I don’t know. It’s the part of me that likes to sprint and gorge myself on life. Like if I don’t do that, it will never happen again. I will never sprint again. I will never gorge myself on life if I’m not doing it.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (36:26)
loops.
and
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (36:52)
Like it’s really hard, that part of me anyway, you know, the whole Oprah thing, like you can have friends and family and health and career, but not all at once or like the two burner theory or is it two or four burner theory? think the two burner theory. And I’m like, why can’t I have all four burners on at once? Like what’s the problem? I never do. I literally can’t, but I still, I’m going to have all four burners on at once. No, bitch. No, you’re not. Like just stop.
It’s really hard for me to accept the fact that I won’t have all four burners on at once and, at least for that part of me. And even if I do, it’s almost like it doesn’t exist in a month. Like it’s back to four burners, I’m using them all, you know? So I don’t know if that’s some of like the ADHD stuff for me, sort of this like, I’ve talked with people before about, I feel like I’ll build a system.
And in my mind, this is why I also need people around me. In my mind, it’s like I’m building a sandcastle right next to a shore, but I don’t realize that’s what I’m doing. I walk away from it and I come back and I sort of see remnants, but I’m like, I don’t even remember what this was. And then I build it up again. And it basically looks the exact same, but I had to build it again. Like I have to build it again. It’s like, once I walk away from something, it almost feels like it loses its shape and form. And so I’ll say to myself, hey, four burner theory, tear or two burner, you you can only…
You can only do two things at once. And there’s a voice in the back of my mind that’s like, fuck off. No, you can do more. You can do more. You can do all the things. And I’ll say, okay, but really, like, you can only do a couple of things at once. And let’s say I decide to do those couple of things, whatever they might be, in a month, I’m having the exact same conversation with myself. So it’s almost like, God, I’m building that sandcastle again. Like, my gosh, here we go again. Like, let me build this up. Maybe I can do all four. Nope, still can’t. So it’s like…
I’m almost like working against myself. I mean, that’s just it. Like I’m this part of me that wants to sprint and gorge myself on life. And then also that part feels threatened for sure. I don’t even know what that is.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (38:58)
I was trying to think of an identity for that. Yeah.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (39:01)
I don’t know. It doesn’t feel like it’s essential. don’t know if it’s… Okay, as I’m talking, I’m thinking part of it probably does have something to do with the sandcastle thing. Like, it’s hard to hold forms in my mind if they’re not in front of me. And so, which fucks up my sense of time. And I already think that time is nonlinear anyway. So my concept of time is just shot, period. And then, you know, it’s nonlinear, so it doesn’t matter. But then I like go, I go back to a thing that I…
just visited, let’s say a week ago, and it feels like it’s been six years and a thousand miles, you know? Like it’s like, ⁓ my God, it’s been forever since I’ve done this thing, but it hasn’t been. So this like not having a good concept of time, not holding shape and form in my mind if it’s not like in front of my face, and then also wanting to like sprint and gorge, you know? It’s like the perfect, perfect.
It’s like this great, this great combination of things that I don’t know what to do with. Maybe it’s like ADHD is part of it. It feels like, right? Like it’s like, maybe some of this is ADHD and then also, you know, tendency to want to move.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (40:19)
Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like you would be yourself if you were more, ⁓ still or, ⁓ I don’t know, like, is there a version of yourself that can do that or, know, that kind of, or is it just kind of built into your.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (40:37)
Yeah, that’s funny. ⁓ Yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (40:39)
be in perpetual.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (40:43)
I can be still. ⁓ It works best if I’m by myself. if it’s hard to be still when my kids are around. And even if my husband or there’s like a dog in the space with me, like any energy immediately sucks half my attention. Even if they’re quiet, I’m just sort of aware of this other thing, you know? And so when I’m by myself, especially, I can just sort of breathe and like be. ⁓ There was a second thought I had though. It was the stillness piece.
It also works best when I feel satiated about something, like concept, like I’ve been able to grapple with the concept and like to its full completion, now I can breathe. So it doesn’t feel like I need to achieve this thing. It feels like my brain has trouble letting it, I feel like I’ll reference myself sometimes as like a dog with a bone, you know, I’m like trying to get all the marrow out of this bone. Once it’s done, like, all right, I’m good. I can.
Yes. Fucking chill. Yeah. Until I get excited about bringing it to actual fruition and then, you know, we’re off to the races again. yeah, there’s.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (41:44)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Yeah. I connect with that, ⁓ pretty deeply. Yeah. There’s something, something around like I have to reach some, some level of, I mean, that’s a good word for it. Satiation. Satiety. Yeah.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (42:05)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (42:09)
I don’t know.
Yeah. Yeah. And then us. Yeah. I relax a little bit.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (42:16)
Yep, especially like in the conceptual piece. The tasky stuff makes me agitated, but the conceptual stuff is where I like, then I feel, I can feel really satiated from that sort of thing. Yeah, which is funny. Yeah, cause I think you’re good with tasky stuff.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (42:28)
Yeah
Yeah, probably too good. mean, that’s where, yeah, I talk about or think about false productivity a lot where I can do lots of tasks and they may or may not. I mean, I don’t think I waste time, but they’re not like huge, like big meaningful tasks. Again, like Cal Newport would talk about, knocking out emails and taking care of little things here and there.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (42:56)
It makes me wonder, you’re probably one of those people who’s really good at both visionary and integrator, like being a combo of the two, like of the people, you know what I’m saying? Like of the people to be a V slash I combo. And I know Gino Wickman talks about this interaction at some point where, or maybe it’s in Rocket Fuel, where it’s a very small percentage of people who do this well. And, you know, he talks about, I think one guy, or he writes about one guy who was both visionary and integrator and just was able to do that for 20 plus years. And
grow the business and, you know, like do these other things. It would, it makes me think that you’re probably one of those people then. You’re probably somebody who does both while you can hold sort of these conceptual, bigger visions, whatever that might look like, whatever they might look like. And then also integrate, be the integrator, bring things to completion from a task oriented, you know, tasky place as well as like conceptual.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (43:49)
Yeah, maybe so. Maybe so I can’t say I’ve really tried, but I can’t, I am tasked and sort of oriented and deadline oriented. mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that’s almost actually, I mean, I’m kind of doing that now in our practice in a way because we don’t have it in.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (44:09)
You’re both. Yeah, it’s like you literally like you are both you are the visionary but also you’re doing integrator type things like you’re the point person and the Yeah, yeah, You want to do this scenario? We’ve been on for a little while. I think mostly I’m aware of your own time I don’t want to keep you here forever We’re gonna jump. Let’s jump to the scenario. All right folks So for the scenario if you have listened before you already know I’m gonna read a scenario and then we’re just going to Talk about it. So bear with me
You have just wrapped up a major hiring cycle, onboarded two new team members, implemented a new process for clinical reviews, and hit your quarterly goals. Everything is working, but now there’s quiet. No fires, no chaos, no deadlines. And yet you feel agitated. You start rewriting your to-do list, fixing things that aren’t broken, and considering another program to build out.
What the hell is going on? That’s the question. That really is the question. How would you, okay, so maybe there’s two questions here. What the hell is going on? That could be the first question, so maybe three questions. How would you work with someone like this? And then how would you cope if this was you? Like what would be going on if this was you? Which I think that’s the whole point of this like episode is that we’re talking about this, but this is bring it home, real life scenario. This happens, it’s you.
What’s going on?
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (45:41)
So the textbook answer versus the real life answer. think both, both exist. So gosh, how would I work with somebody in this space? So being, yeah, having the luxury of looking in from the outside, it’s a true luxury. I mean, I think I’ve gone through this enough and like reflected on this process enough where I could.
look at someone and say, what’s going on here? You know, and then play a little bit of, you know, therapist or coach or whatever, and, and just point out the process and like, what’s coming up for you and what do you need? You know, what’s going on? What are you missing? What hole are you trying to fill? Like, is it useful or is this just an activity or, you know, a pursuit or whatever? ⁓ that’s probably where I would start with folks, right. And
objectively, it sounds like everything’s great for now. And this person doesn’t necessarily need to be doing anything. So kind of digging into that. Personally, though. Yeah, I mean, the textbook answer is like, I probably notice this and myself and do some reflection and like, talk to people I trust and ⁓ get to a better place. You know, be content and
just sit with it. But what actually happens in real life is I may not channel it immediately into a work thing, ⁓ but I will channel it somewhere, you know? So I’ll be like, ⁓ maybe I need to run another marathon. Let me sign up for a marathon and put a training plan in place so that I can follow like week by week and work towards something. Or maybe there’s a house project. Let me look and see what that could, you know? So.
I will channel that, ⁓ that energy somewhere in most cases or whatever. Maybe I’ll research something in detail. I’m kind of like ashamed to admit that I will, I, a, another life, I feel like I could be a personal shopper. Like I knew so much online research for stuff that I buy. So I would like go research refrigerators or something and figure out if we need a new refrigerator, you know, or like, I’ll put it somewhere in real life.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (48:02)
So funny. Did you share this guy? I don’t know where I heard this from. There was this guy who started going to open houses and then writing about the experience. And he was just really, he was an engineer. So he was really thorough and meticulous and like very clean with his writing. And then people started approaching him about like, go check out this open house for me. And then they wanted him to be their realtor. And so he ended up like building up this math. He became a realtor and he ended up building up this
like massive business because he just went to an open house and like wrote about it as him and his wife were house shopping. So to sink into the fridges, like that’s a legit profession. You could be a personal shopper and you know, maybe that’s your next career is like personal shopping. I don’t mean to put more on your plate. This is supposed to be about not doing that. So my bad, but yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (48:54)
Yeah.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (48:55)
Yeah, I’m going to say I relate to you. Yeah, I’m thinking that it would be, it was somebody talking about some famous musician, like they would talk about sort of the experience of coming off stage and it was either drinking to like come down or doing coke to like keep it going. And that like, process of like downshifting is downshifting is really hard for me.
it’s really hard and I love, this is probably TMI, but alcoholism runs in my family. I would love to drink every day. Like it would be such an easy, I don’t drink right now at all, but it’d be easy. That downshift is the benefit. Like bringing my brain down, just like slowing things down just a tiny little bit. Not to the point of drunkenness, but like just enough to like, shoo, whoa. Okay, I can like.
physiologically like, I’m like relieving some of the weight, know, whatever the weight is, just like the going, going, going. So downshifting is hard, period. So yeah, if I was in this position, I would know what was happening. Like I can see it clearly and I might do one of two things. So depending on like how great I felt about what was happening, like, man, I can feel so good, you know.
I might try to keep it going in the way of like, I’m going to start this new workout program or I’m going to learn how to crochet or I’m going to pick French back up or I’m going to whatever, buy a keyboard and like start playing the piano again or who knows, learn coding. I was four weeks postpartum and I started a free coding program. Why? Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? And so it might go that direction or it might go the direction of you’re doing that thing again, Tara. Like you’re doing that thing.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (50:42)
Thank you.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (50:51)
where you are just, you’re just excited about this, but like you’ve just physically slow yourself down. And so it might be I hike instead. And so it’s not like the production of something. It’s more like, I know if I hike in the forest, in particular, if I’m surrounded by trees, I know I’m gonna like, I can breathe. Okay. It helps me sort of slow down and reground, honestly. Probably stay barefoot also. I really like to be barefoot in grass.
helps me feel alive, feel connected to the earth. And then maybe there’s something about just not allowing myself to do that, like more of something, until I feel slower in my body, if that makes sense. It’s like, are some things I can do. That’s also assuming that I recognize as it’s happening, because sometimes I might not recognize, a lot of times I do, but not always. And then if I was working with somebody,
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (51:35)
Any? Any?
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (51:48)
I probably would say the same thing. Obviously, we’d be calling this thing out as like, I think this is what’s happening and then trying to identify the part or the wound or the need or the meaning behind the movement, you know, and trying to help them figure out other ways in which they could potentially bring themselves down or like allow for some discomfort, maybe not forever, but like sort of paying attention to this discomfort rather than trying to…
channel it or even like stop it entirely from happening. Because also think about like it’s a whole system disruption. Like it makes sense to me that we would feel uncomfortable with something like that if you are moving and building and doing something and then all of a sudden if you took a moving piece and you just like, know, ⁓ picked it up and dropped it, it’s going to like keep slowly spinning probably until it eventually stops. And so I think, well, it does make sense to me that there’s an after effect of
Something like this, like a major hiring cycle, onboarding two new team members, implementing a new process, like hitting quarterly goals. You’re on high, sure, but also you’ve just done a lot of movement. Same as if you fucking run on a treadmill. You get off and the whole world is moving around you. It feels like the same thing where you have to just, you know, reorient yourself to what not being on a treadmill feels like, which maybe it wasn’t stillness either. Like it might be that your baseline isn’t stillness necessarily, but it’s slower than the speed that you were just traveling at.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (53:18)
Maybe it’s walking, it’s on a ride. ⁓
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (53:20)
Yeah, yeah. Which
feels lame at first. Then it’s like combating the like, god, this is boring. Like I’m walking, I could be sprinting, you know? Yeah.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (53:31)
Yeah,
I hear you. I was just talking to my wife about this yesterday, actually. Maybe, I think we’re in the same ballpark where, you know, like I told you, we just got done with this weekend of soccer with my son. had this big tournament. And I’ve experienced this with big events like that where there’s a long buildup and anticipation and like a lot that goes into, you know, where you like hit the event and then
The few days after there’s this huge letdown. think that’s like a known phenomenon, right? So it happens for me with like races that I’ve trained for or happened with our wedding for sure, a long time ago, you know, things like that. And, you know, I think that’s what you’re getting at with this question is like, you’ve like made this sprint, you know, you’ve done the sprint and then everything’s good, quote unquote. like you close the quarter and then what?
happens then it’s like an emptiness or a warning or a grief or something and then what do do to combat that or do you sit with it? you like cover it up?
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (54:30)
Yeah.
We haven’t, holy shit, we haven’t talked about grief, I think, at all in this episode, but I think that that is a major player with any of this. And like the space, you know? Like what you just said, I forget how you languished it, but this notion of like you’ve been doing something and creating, and then there’s like empty space.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (54:59)
Mmm.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (55:01)
It can’t be filled right away. Like that’s literally loss. This, have removed something. You’ve removed something. There’s empty space, which is lost. This thing is now gone. And like, what does it mean to be gone? But also, why can’t we grieve things like that? What’s wrong with grieving something? Like even a great thing’s happening. It can’t remain great, you know? Even if something great has been happening, once it ends, you should feel great. Like, I don’t mean that in a shitty way, but…
You should feel grief. One, that’s a testament to how great it is. Two, now there’s a loss and it’s not necessarily a loss of identity, but like a loss of a part of you that’s been planning and gunning for something and striving and whatever. You hit this benchmark, you hit this goal and you know, now what? Well, now you grieve that it’s done and then you eventually will set a new one. yeah, maybe that’s obvious. Maybe that’s obvious to people who are listening or maybe that’s obvious like from this conversation, but
I do wonder if there should be more conversation even just about grief as maybe like practice owners. don’t mean to make this like group practice owners need to grieve more, you know, but like maybe there’s something about like grief isn’t everything. Like it’s literally everywhere. It’s also always really close for me at the surface. Like it’s right underneath. And so I think there’s something about like, fuck yeah. There’s grief there too. I forgot about this. Of course there is. And I wonder if like, conceptually you have this understanding of what’s happening. It actually helps you to deal with the
The need for that frenetic energy maybe, for me it comes out as frenetic, like in that empty space where I’m frantically trying to fill if I don’t catch it, know? But then the alternative is like, if I can catch it and I’m like, ⁓ that’s what’s happening, then it’s acknowledging and being with that grief as well. That’s part of the stillness. It’s butters, it’s the, you went to some South Park, right?
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (56:52)
and
Why don’t things look up to me? I think you’re the best.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (56:59)
Butters
all the time. He’s like, you know, we think about from an IFS perspective, I think about one of my parts as like a little Butters, you know, he like walks around like, I guess I can do that, you know, I don’t know, what’s everyone doing? You know, he’s just like real concerned and real anxious and real nervous all the time. But there’s the one episode where Wendy Testenberger breaks up with Stan and then he turns total goth and he’s just like depressed and not all goths are depressed, but he…
Like, his attire totally changes to like, Gothimo, and also he like, gets real, real sad. Real, real sort of morose and sad. And then Butters, in the same episode, thinks he has a girlfriend at Raisin’s, which is the equivalent of Hooters in the show. It’s, South Park is so unhinged. So fucking funny, but so unhinged. So he has this like, quote, girlfriend who’s actually the server at Raisin’s, so he goes to see her every day, and she’s real nice to him. And then somehow…
He finds out that they’re not dating or maybe they did and they broke up and Butters goes to like talk to Stan and Stan’s all sad and depressed. Butters is like, yeah, but it’s a beautiful kind of sadness. And I’m like, my God. Like, I think I cried when I heard him say that because it just was such a, that’s exactly it. Why can’t it be sad and beautiful at the same time? Why can’t it be rich and meaningful and grief laden? they’re not.
They don’t, they’re not mutually exclusive. would say more often than not, they do and should coexist. And there’s beauty in that. That is, I’m just like, that’s fucking meaning of life. It’s all of it. It’s all of it at once. Like let it be together. Stop shutting it out. Feel your grief when you do awesome shit. Know that it’s going to end and it’s okay when it does. Cause then there will be more awesome shit in your future.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (58:46)
Well said.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (58:47)
That was a little tangent. My butter’s tangent.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (58:50)
There you go. Butters brings it home for us.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (58:54)
Butters brings that actually needs to be a catchphrase. I might adopt that as a catchphrase for the podcast. I’m just going to reference butters like butters brings it home, you know, as always. man, this has been I hope this has been awesome for me. This was awesome. I don’t know how was for you, but thanks, man. This was great.
Dr. Jeremjy Sharp (59:13)
Yeah, yeah, this is super cool. don’t really have these conversations a whole lot. So any opportunity is really meaningful.
Dr. Tara Vossenkemper (59:21)
Yeah, cool. Thanks Jeremy for anybody listening. I will have all of the stuff related to Jeremy in my show notes so you can find links there and Or if you’re on YouTube in the YouTube description if you’re watching this it’s gonna be below in the description or in the show notes you’ll find links to all of the things he does and if you are Listening and you’re like God. This was fantastic. I loved this episode
Just share it with somebody. Share it with somebody else you think it might resonate with, another group practice owner, even just another business owner, period. Because I think while we are both group practice owners, the reality is that what we’re not talking about is unique to group practice ownership. think it’s something about entrepreneurship and about being a business owner and about, I don’t know, the stillness that needs to come with it as well as the grief and the agitation and the restlessness and the evolution of how we show up and all of that.
Sharing is caring, folks. Share it with somebody that you think needs it. So that’s all I got. Thanks for being here. Thank you again, Jeremy, for joining me. It’s been great. everybody Thanks, Rob. Thanks. Yeah, no problem. I’m probably going to have you back on again at some point because I just think you’re awesome. So everybody else, have a great day. I will see you next time. Bye.
Click here to listen instead!