Dr. Jeremy Sharp (00:01)
Hey folks, welcome back to the podcast. Today’s topic is pretty important. We’re talking about neurodiversity affirming practices in schools. And my guest today is a fantastic person to comment on this topic. I’ve got Emily Kircher Morris. So she is the coauthor of the book or a coauthor of the book, Neurodiversity Affirming Schools, Transforming Practices So All Students Feel Accepted and Supported.
She is an LPC, an educator who specializes in supporting neurodivergent individuals in both clinical and school settings. ⁓ like I said, has a private practice. She was a teacher for a long time, now is an author. She’s also a podcast host of the Neurodiversity Podcast. So Emily is really active in the space and loved having the chance to pick her brain on a pretty hot topic these days. So.
We of course talk all about neurodiversity in schools. What her definition of neurodiversity is, what a neurodiverse school might look like. We talk about ways that we as psychologists and neuropsychologists can write recommendations that are both affirming, but also doable for school staff. get into the distinction between enabling and accommodating, as well as this discussion around
What does it actually mean to be neurodiversity affirming? And many other topics. This was a really rich conversation and I was very grateful to have Emily here with me for an hour. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Emily Kircher Morris.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:42)
Emily, hey, welcome to the podcast. Yeah, thanks for being here. I think I heard y’all, were you on the Learn Smarter podcast at some point? Yeah, yeah, super cool. Yeah, I saw that episode and I was like, my gosh, I gotta get these folks onto my show as well, because y’all are doing such good work. ⁓ So happy to have you here. We’re gonna be talking about neurodiversity inclusive schools and many things related to that.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (01:45)
thanks for having me.
Yeah, I was. Yep.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (02:11)
I’ll start with a question I always do, is why this out of all the things you can focus on and spend your energy and life doing, why this?
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (02:20)
Yeah, I mean, as for many people, there’s always kind of this personal component to it. And so for me, you know, going back to when I was a kid, so I was diagnosed as ADHD when I was in fifth grade, which I always mentioned to folks, like for women, my age was super rare in the early 90s, but my mom was a special education teacher and she knew that something was going on that was causing the difficulties I was having at school that wasn’t related to intelligence or ability.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (02:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (02:50)
And so she was always my advocate and she advocated for me. was diagnosed and took medication, ⁓ but school was still really hard. And at that point in time, there was no talk about accommodations or supports or strategies. It was kind of just like, here, take this medication. And if you don’t do something well, you’re going to be disciplined for it. ⁓ And so that was basically the, you you’ll then learn, like that was the idea.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (03:05)
Hmm.
Sure.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (03:20)
And so, you know, that caused a lot of ripple effects, you just as far as my own anxiety and stress and lots of different things throughout school. So when I graduated from high school, I decided, you know, I wanted to kind of write some of those things that had happened. And so I decided to go into teaching. So I started out as teacher. got my undergrad in elementary education, taught in a third grade classroom.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (03:38)
Hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (03:46)
But what I really loved, and I was also in a program for identified gifted students when I was growing up. ⁓ And so I got my first master’s in education with gifted ed certification. Taught there. But again, there was kind of this other component of that social and emotional piece. So I got a second master’s in counseling. Now I’m an LPC. So I worked as a school counselor, did this. But taking all of those experiences, the work that I did in the schools, the work that I do in the mental health world, and blending that together is what really led us to
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (03:51)
Hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (04:15)
shift this whole view of how we support students in schools trying to move away from some of the things that that don’t necessarily work for neurodivergent kids. ⁓ And so yeah, so that’s that’s kind of you know, the the trajectory where all of this started and has grown from there.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:36)
Hmm. Yeah. I love a good personal story. There’s always some kind of personal component.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (04:38)
I always feel
a little weird sharing all of it, but it is relevant. mean, it’s kind of, yeah, it’s from, that’s where a lot of it really started.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:47)
Yeah, yeah, 100%. It matters. It matters. And just to make it clear, you are already using the words like we and us. I just want to make it explicit. You have a partner who couldn’t be here today, Amanda. And I just want to make sure and shout her out.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (04:56)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Amanda and I ⁓ came together to write our recent book, Neurodiversity in Farming Schools, Transforming Practices. So all students feel accepted and supported. And it was a great partnership because I came from both the education and the mental health world with that background in both gifted and then the counseling side of things. But she came at it from early childhood special education. So we really have a lot of things that we were able to blend together.
But yes, absolutely. And she is amazing. But yeah, it didn’t work out for her to be here today for the interview.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:38)
⁓ Yeah, this is great. really excited to dig into all of these things. ⁓ And you have a unique perspective coming from the clinical side and the educational side. Most of us are on one or the other. So gosh, ⁓ how do we start? Maybe we do some definitions. I would love to hear just like your conceptualization of what neurodiversity affirming means, because there are many different ideas about that these days.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (06:06)
Yeah, absolutely. So neurodiversity affirming is really about recognizing that we have students who are coming into our schools with all different neurotypes, different needs, different ⁓ experiences, and recognizing that when we approach people who are neurodivergent ⁓ with a framework that doesn’t view them as broken, that doesn’t necessarily view them as ⁓ something that just needs to be fixed to make them look
quote unquote normal, ⁓ they’re actually better able to learn. They’re better able to find a way to be their authentic selves that actually supports them in the future as they go forward. So when I think about neurodiversity affirming, I’m really talking about recognizing that ⁓ when we are talking about emotional regulation, for example.
we need to recognize that for neurodivergent kids, the strategies that help them regulate those emotions might look different than it does for other students. So that might be certain sensory needs. It might be certain, you know, types of, you know, different types of accommodations. And so finding the ways that work, I love this phrase, but finding the ways that work with their brain instead of against it. And so, so often for kids who are neurodivergent, we’re telling them to sit still. We’re telling them to,
⁓ keep their eyes on the speaker when really those are actually things that might inhibit their learning. And so when we talk about neurodiversity affirming, we’re really talking about meeting kids where they are and then helping them find the strategies that work for them to help them be successful in the school setting.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:45)
Love that. And you’re plugged into this world pretty deeply. I know that there are a few schools out there that call themselves neurodivergent affirming. They were kind of built on that foundation specifically. What does that landscape look like? Can you give me just a general sense of how are there many schools out there that are specifically catering to neurodivergent students? if not, how are we looking as far as adoption of these principles?
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (07:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So ⁓ there are some here and there who kind of recognize this, ⁓ but there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. There’s a lot of shifting that needs to happen just as far as some of the old ways that we approached these things ⁓ as far as meeting their needs. it’s interesting.
you get in your little bubbles. Like, and I’m very aware of the fact that I’m in this bubble where everybody understands neurodiversity and neurodivergence. and, but, but it’s interesting when I go and do presentations, I work a lot with educators, I work a lot with clinicians and depending on the audience, people have not even heard those terms a lot of times in the schools. ⁓ but I do think that overall there is this awareness that, ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (09:01)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (09:10)
that we need to rethink some of these ways that we’ve been working with kids, just because there’s just an overarching conversational piece. I feel like it’s happening in the mental health world. I think it’s happening in the educational world, like in both of those spaces, ⁓ and rethinking about how we blend that autonomy for individuals, even when they’re kids. How do we help them be authentic? How do we help them ⁓
again, find the things that they have that, you know, some control over their own lives where they’re just not trying to conform.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (09:51)
Right. Yeah, it’s such a, there’s so much to get into here. You know, as I just immediately think about like, you know, I’m a very practical concrete person for better or for worse. And so, you know, I think about how do we do this in a classroom of 30 kids where, you know, it’s essentially like tailored education and doing things differently, um, on in any direction, whether it’s neurodiversity affirming or not, you know, there are lots of different ways of learning and being in a classroom.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (10:10)
Right.
Yeah. I mean, really what we’re talking about is universal design, right? And so just in case anyone hasn’t heard that particular term, I mean, I think a lot of people have, but universal design is this concept that comes actually from engineering, from civil engineering, where we were making ⁓ places, accessible for, ⁓ you know, certain disabilities. So for example, making sure that a building has a ramp so that people, you know, who have an impairment in their mobility can get, can access that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (10:23)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (10:48)
And so that has then been expanded into both education, but I would even say in the mental health field as well, when we’re talking about like, what does universal design look like? Well, in the clinical setting, it might look like having fidgets available for your clients, right? Having various seating options. Like there’s just some different things there. And in the classroom, it’s the same. What are the types of accommodations or supports that can help all kids?
regardless of diagnosis or not. Because that’s the other thing about neurodivergence is you might have some kids who have a diagnosis. You probably have a lot of kids in your classroom who are neurodivergent who don’t have a diagnosis because of a multitude of factors that can prevent that from happening. so, you have, again, sensory ⁓ supports that are available in the classroom, just have them there and have them available for everybody.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (11:28)
right.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (11:42)
when you’re presenting information in the classroom, making sure that it’s not just, ⁓ you know, spoken aloud, but that you have it available, you know, on a visual, you know, on the board or on a piece of paper or something. But again, making it available for everybody because it doesn’t have to be like, I have to do this for this student and this for that student and this for this other student. But finding the systems that we can put in place that help those kids be successful and recognizing that it’ll actually help.
all of the kids in the long run.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:12)
Yeah, such a good point. Those universal design aspects, like you said, it benefits everybody and then it, you know.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (12:21)
Right, absolutely.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:22)
Yeah.
And I think about myself, I mean, I don’t know that I identify as like classically neurodivergent necessarily, you know, I certainly lean anxious and a little bit compulsive, but you know, whether you consider that neurodivergent or not, but you know, but I still love like picking up a pen and fidgeting with it in a meeting and you know, being able to like draw things while I’m listening and stuff like that. you know, little, little things go a long way.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (12:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, and I think it’s also so interesting because one of the things that I’ll often hear from people when we talk about giving these supports and accommodations to kids is they’ll say things like, well, we need to get them ready for the real world, right? They’re not going to be able to do that in the real world. And I said, actually, that is totally not true. Like as an adult, I have so much flexibility for how I work, how I structure things. So for example, like
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:59)
Right.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (13:14)
If I have a job and I don’t like my boss, I can quit that job. A student in a classroom with a teacher cannot, right? ⁓ If I’m at a job and I’m, or just in my personal life and I’m running behind on things, I can email somebody and say, hey, I’m running a little bit behind on this. Is there a little bit of flexibility here? And just ask for that. Whereas sometimes in schools, it’s very hard and fast where, you know, you have to have a deadline. ⁓ You could also think about just even collaboration.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (13:18)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (13:43)
as an adult, again, if you and I are working on something together and you’re really good at one thing and I’m good at another, I can say, well, why don’t you do this part and I’ll do that part and we’ll pull it all together. But in school, you’re expected to do all of those things day in and day out independently. And so when we think about going forward, recognizing that actually the thing that helps kids learn to self-regulate are the things that help them in the long run, in the quote unquote real world.
And not to say that there aren’t negative outcomes. For example, we talk about eye contact, right? So for a lot of people who are autistic, that can be difficult for them or uncomfortable for them. And on the one hand, we can think about ⁓ whether or not they need to be able to make eye contact. My thought always is, where do we build in, again, that autonomy piece?
where they understand, okay, well, this is a situation where I might wanna be able to either make eye contact or fake making eye contact, say, when I go in for a job interview, but other times I can self-advocate and say, I actually can listen and focus much better when I’m looking at the floor rather than looking at your face. And so when we think about treatment goals, for example, I would always say making eye contact should never be a treatment goal, right? Like it’s more about how do you navigate those social situations and build in and understand some of those nonverbals.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (14:49)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (15:04)
without necessarily prescribing them as in, this is the way it’s supposed to be. It’s such a culturally relevant, know, contextual piece, like for a lot of those examples. ⁓ I feel like I’m going off on a little bit of a tangent here, but just recognizing that, ⁓ you know, the way our schools are set up is not necessarily a true microcosm of the quote unquote real world.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there are a couple of things to pull from that. I the first just, totally agree with you. We have a lot of conversations with our kids. We were talking, you my kids are 12 and 14, old enough to have their own ideas and perspectives and personalities for better or for worse. But we are having a lot of conversations with them about that very issue of like, yeah, this is how you do it in school, but is that, you know, going to help you out there? ⁓ You know, what is the real world like?
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (15:44)
You
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:57)
you develop skills to self-advocate or utilize resources that may not be available in school every day and things like that. So I’m right with you on that. ⁓ The other point though, and we’re kind of wading into this territory of just how to walk that fine line of being affirming and accommodating without ⁓ that being detrimental maybe.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (16:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (16:26)
You know, there’s a lot in this around how affirming are we around neurodiversity and you know, at what point do you say, well, this is just kind of a real world skill that you probably need at some point. there’s a lot, there’s a lot to unpack there, but we’re here.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (16:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I
totally agree with you. And I think that that is ⁓ one of the ways that I think about this. And I know that people will there will be people out there who don’t agree with me on this. But when Amanda and I wrote this book, we really had to think about what do we what? Yeah. What do we mean by neurodiversity affirming? And who does that? What does that really mean as far as like what are who our students are? So depending on who you ask, you can get different
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (16:56)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (17:13)
definitions of what is a neurodivergent label. So neurodiversity really is referring to a group of people or a space. So anytime you have multiple people together, it is a neurodiverse space. You can have a neurodiverse classroom or a neurodiverse school. ⁓ But an individual who has a neurotype that varies from the norm is neurodivergent. They’re the one that is not within what we would call that neuro-normative population. They’re outliers on some of those traits.
But when we think about specifically ⁓ how we approach this, we really kind of look at the students who are neurodivergent as the individuals who communicate differently, learn differently, have relationships differently than what we would commonly expect for, again, that neuronormative population. So when we talk about being affirming or accommodating in the clinical setting, again, this is a good example. When I have a client who comes in,
me and they’re dealing with anxiety or say OCD like and I would even say OCD kind of falls in that neurodivergent category but if I am affirming or accommodating I’m actually going to make those things worse right I’m going to magnify those issues they’re not going to improve. My goal when somebody who’s dealing with anxiety comes into my practice is to make the anxiety go away it’s episodic we can treat it we have you know strategies we can we can hopefully make that go away.
When a client comes into my office and they are autistic, my goal is not to make the autism go away. My goal is to help them navigate a world that wasn’t created for them. How do you show up in this space and recognize that it doesn’t always make sense naturally? And so there are some strategies and some skills. How do you blend those strategies and skills with what feels comfortable for you so that you can get
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (18:50)
Hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (19:07)
the outcomes that you want that are important to you while you’re navigating all of this. And so that’s how I kind of separate those two concepts there. ⁓ Because, you know, for example, like, let’s say you have a neurodivergent student who’s always interrupting maybe because they’re ADHD, maybe they’re autistic, they don’t always, you know, have a lot of, ⁓ you know, some of those social cues or whatever else it is, who knows what’s causing all of that. But, you know, do we just
affirm them and allow them to continue interrupting over and over and over again when it’s disruptive to the relationships, when it’s disruptive to the classroom? No. But how do we find a way to help them with that in a way that again, works with their brain instead of against it? We’re just not going to discipline them and tell them they’re in trouble because if we do that, we might get short-term compliance for a short amount of time, but we’re not actually solving any problems there. So how do we build that perspective taking? How do we help them find a way to
catch that a little bit and build some of that response inhibition. And it’s tricky, it’s not easy. But I think the biggest part is just recognizing that kids show up as who they are. ⁓ the ways that we have handled those types of behaviors have been to view them as discipline issues. And that’s really one of the biggest shifts here is recognizing that we need to look beneath the behavior to figure out what’s, is it poor executive functioning?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:28)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (20:36)
Is it difficulty with emotional regulation? Is it anxiety based? Like what’s going on beneath that? And then solve that problem instead of just assuming that we can, can, you know, give a quick response and then, and that’s going to fix it.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:49)
Yeah, yeah, that was such a light bulb moment. I’m guessing you are, you know, familiar with Ross Green’s work, you know, lives in the balance, you know, explosive kid and all that stuff. Yeah, I mean, that was such a light bulb moment. Whenever that was 20 years ago, when I read that stuff, it was like, OK, I like this. Like kids do well when they can. And if they can’t, it’s a lagging skill. And we just need to address those skills versus treating them as bad kids. think that goes a long way in many scenarios.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (20:55)
Mm-hmm. Totally.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It’s interesting when I worked as a school counselor, so I live outside of St. Louis in the school district where I worked. ⁓ We had a psychologist who worked with our school district as well as some other local ones, but this is somebody, his name is Jerry Cox and he’s a co-author with Ross Green. He’s worked with Ross Green quite a bit on a lot of different things. And so I had the opportunity on a regular basis to meet with him as we were doing, you know, talking about kids who were struggling. And ⁓ at this point I had been teaching probably 10 years or so. This was maybe about, probably, yeah.
12 or 15 years ago, I don’t know, it’s been, when I start doing the math, it gets a little overwhelming, but anyway, yeah. but he, in one of our meetings, we were talking about some, I don’t know if it was a behavior chart or behavior plan or something that they were doing in one of the classrooms for this kid, which was just being ineffective. And he said something, Dr. Cox said something, he said something like, well, you know, don’t have to have a behavior management plan in a classroom. And I was like, my,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (21:50)
Mm-hmm.
Time is weird. Yeah. Time is weird.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (22:16)
brain kind of exploded because that is so baked into our schools. He said, no, he goes, and as I’ve thought about this more and as I’ve worked with this, it totally makes sense. The traditional types of behavior management plans that we put in place in classrooms, first of all, the kids that they quote unquote work for don’t need them. And the kids that quote unquote need them, they don’t work for.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:38)
Right. Right.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (22:44)
And so when we need to take a different approach to that, we need to look at each individual student and recognize again that while it’s helpful to have some accountability with kids and they need to be able to self-regulate, ⁓ just having that type of a plan where you’re clipping up or clipping down or flipping a card or whatever system it is that’s in place ⁓ is really not nearly as effective as we would like to think it might be.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:11)
Yeah, yeah, that’s such a good point. I want to zoom out a little bit and talk more just about neurodiversity affirming schools in general. We’ve talked about some principles, but are there other, ⁓ just like bedrock principles, you know, that you would mention that are characteristics of ⁓ neurodiversity affirming schools?
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (23:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Well, the universal design is one. ⁓ And so I think that that’s a big piece of this. Another is ⁓ really about shifting language that we’re using. So when we are ⁓ talking about or to students or when we’re writing IEPs, ⁓ at least moving to neutral language instead of deficit-based language, if not strengths-based.
So for example, writing, the student is defiant when they get frustrated about doing this. It’s like, okay, well, the student shows some emotion when, how do we rephrase that where it’s like, defiant is such a value laden word, right? And so, it’s like they experience emotional dysregulation ⁓ related to low frustration tolerance, right? Or whatever that might be.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (24:20)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (24:29)
be. We can describe it in a neutral way because as people in the audience who are listening, I’m sure are familiar with, ⁓ even from a CBT standpoint, love it or leave it, whatever, but we recognize that the language that we use influences the way that we think about and feel certain situations. And so if we’re talking about a student and going, well, they’re just so rude all the time to their peers and to me, or ⁓ they’re just unmotivated, they just don’t care.
Okay, how can we reframe that in a way that is neutral ⁓ and then helps us focus on solutions? So that’s a big piece of it is just that language component. ⁓ I can go on if you’d like or if you want to.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (25:06)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, I…
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (25:18)
Yeah, okay, okay. I can start talking and just kind of keep on going. So I just
want to make sure that like, you know, I’m giving some space here. So ⁓ that’s a big one. ⁓ The other piece, I mentioned kind of the strengths-based supports. ⁓ so that when we talk about strengths-based instruction, ⁓ quite often the people think that that always means interest-based instruction, which it can be.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (25:45)
Hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (25:45)
But that’s
not necessarily the only way that we would see that. So for example, if you have a student who is really strong in ⁓ their verbal ability, but specifically in writing as opposed to speaking extemporaneously, how do we leverage that for them? How do we find ways to integrate that into what they’re doing? ⁓ If you have a student who is very ⁓ detail oriented,
Okay, how do we make sure that we’re providing ⁓ instructions for assignments that really give all of that detail that’s going to make them feel comfortable? ⁓ know, trying to really recognize what those different traits might be with students and then leaning into those. ⁓ One of the nice things is it ties in with universal design because when we have classrooms that are created with universal design in mind, it actually gives that flexibility.
quite naturally for students and they can have some choice about those types of things. ⁓ We talk about like another example would be working in groups. When we think about how we ⁓ approach this, there are some kids who would much rather work on their own. There are some kids who would much rather work in groups. And there are times that we can allow them to have that choice. There are times though when they might have to.
work in a group or work independently, whatever that might be. And so the question that goes along with that universal design principle that I always encourage educators to think about is when you’re thinking about an accommodation, what is the goal of the assignment? What is the objective that you’re trying to measure? Sometimes on a group project or, you know, it doesn’t have any, the objective that you’re trying to measure doesn’t have anything to do with this.
So here’s an example. is not, it’s an extreme example, but I think it makes the point. So I was talking to my sister. My sister is a kindergarten teacher and we were talking about books that we had read recently. And so, and I said, well, I read this one and I listened to this one as an audio book. And she asked me, she goes, wait a second, do you count listening to an audio book as, reading? And I said, yes, do you not? And, this is what I’m talking about with the objective. Like,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (27:39)
Mm-hmm.
us.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (28:07)
In my mind, when I think about an accommodation, what difference does it make if a student eye reads or ear reads a book, right? We’re looking at the comprehension of the concepts in the language. In her mind though, in her kindergarten teacher mind, she’s teaching phonics. Okay, well, you can’t listen to an audio book to learn phonics because you’re talking about that sound symbol connection and that phonological processing.
And so when you think about the objective of an assignment, okay, well, an appropriate accommodation for learning phonics would not be listening to an audio book. But if it’s about doing a character analysis, that’s absolutely because the objective is still being met. So being really intentional about those objectives, about what the learning is, and then tying in those strengths is one of those things that you see in those neurodiversity-affirming schools.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (28:58)
Right, right. And that just, calls to mind this idea that we have to be very deliberate, I suppose, right? So this, I don’t know, would you agree with the statement that this requires a bit more from educators and school staff to be mindful? I mean, even to ask that question, what is my objective here? What am I trying to achieve here?
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (29:22)
Yeah,
I think it definitely takes intentionality. It definitely takes unlearning some of the things that we’ve done. And it definitely takes moving away from that knee-jerk reaction, no, like you can’t do this. ⁓ And I don’t think it’s a huge shift though. I just think that it requires, ⁓ again, just kind of processing through that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:37)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (29:48)
You mentioned specifically also about like administrators and the rest of the school team, know, school, like anyone who’s involved in, in supporting kids. ⁓ there really is a systemic. Piece to creating these neurodiversity affirming environments, because the other thing to remember is that you’ve got neurodivergent teachers who are on staff as well, who maybe realize it, maybe they don’t. I’ll be very honest, ⁓ as an ADHD or teaching in the general education classroom.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:08)
Sure.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (30:15)
was so difficult for me because there was so much executive functioning that had to go on. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:19)
my gosh. It sounds like a nightmare just from the outside, right? ⁓ That
sounds really challenging. Like being a teacher sounds really challenging in general, but for anyone with any amount of executive functioning difficulty, yeah.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (30:30)
Yes.
difficulties. ⁓ it
was it was really hard. And that was part of the reason why I left the Gen Ed classroom a little, you know, pretty quickly and moved into the Gifted Ed ⁓ setting because that was just a better fit for me. ⁓ But recognizing like, how do we how do administrators model that with their staff? How do we set up systems even for like the entire school community that are affirming for recognizing that, again, different people have have different ⁓
approaches, different communication styles, different needs. And so I remember, and this is not like rocket science. One of my teachers or one of the principals at one of the very first schools that I taught in at the beginning of the year had every teacher fill out a little index card. How do you, I don’t remember all of the questions, but one of them was like,
what’s the best time to come and talk to you if there’s something going on? Do you prefer for me to like send you an email with details about what’s going on or do you just want me to say, hey, when can we meet or do want me to come and talk to you in person? Like some of those like very basic questions that again, you don’t have to be neurodivergent to appreciate that everyone has those different styles, but that’s what we’re talking about. Like with the universal design, you give everyone those options and then meet them where they are. And so you could do activities like that.
with students as well, you know, or if there’s anybody who’s listening who, you know, I I owned a practice, I no longer own the practice, but it’s like I did, I did a similar thing with my staff when I was there because you just want to, it’s hard to predict that exactly. And especially for those people who are in those, you know, positions of power, as far as being in an administration, like you set the tone for a lot of that. And that’s really important.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (31:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. That’s one of those little things. When you mentioned that, it’s got me thinking about my staff primarily, but then also even my kids, thinking about ⁓ is it better to just yell up the stairs or should I text you when I need something? I mean, little things like that, just being mindful of what grabs people’s attention.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (32:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
What works? Well,
and I think we can model that for kids and hopefully then they start to then implement that as well and recognize that different people have different needs. so then how do they also meet that? Like I have told my kids, like, don’t ask me for stuff like after dinner, like because I’m tired and I’m like, don’t ask me to buy you stuff. Don’t ask me, like that is the worst time that you are going to catch me to
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (33:04)
get a positive reaction. like, you gotta learn this. so, you know, but, you know, helping kids understand that is really helpful for them.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (33:06)
my gosh. my gosh. Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I’m thinking of my poor wife. Literally last night, my daughter’s like, it’s spirit week. I need a pink cowboy hat tomorrow. And of course, we’re scrambling. It’s the worst.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (33:17)
⁓ no.
You know, I’ve never
thought of this before, but I do feel so you mentioned your kids are kind of in between. So I’ve got 17, 15 and 10 and spirit weeks again for an ADHD parent and with ADHD kids, like it is very difficult. It is. Yes. And I realize now I look back when I worked as a school counselor, part of my job was creating these spirit weeks. I’m like, I apologize.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (33:34)
Mm-hmm.
It’s a special kind of torture. Yeah.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (33:54)
to all of the parents who ever had to manage all of this, but just recognizing like that even those little things and the stuff that kids are dealing with at home, you know, mean, and that I’m not telling, I’m not saying that anyone has to get rid of spirit weeks, but just recognizing like there’s a lot of extra, you know, labor that goes into those types of things. And, you know, it’s, I mean, we, I,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (34:05)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (34:23)
If I could just get my kids to ⁓ turn in a paper that has to be signed for a field trip, like before the teacher is emailing me, like that would be miraculous. You know, it’s just hard, yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (34:34)
Huge win.
Yes. Yes. Well, and there’s also parallels to intervention and how affirming we are too, you know, cause like, you know, at least in our house, my wife is the one that’s like, okay, I’ll go to the dollar store, whatever at 8 PM to get you this thing for tomorrow. And I’m over there like, sorry, you don’t get to do the thing tomorrow because you waited too late. You know, this is like what’s affirming what’s, you know, real world. What’s what are.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (34:42)
Mm-hmm.
⁓ huh.
Well, and yeah,
absolutely. I mean, and I think it’s a balance, right? Like I’m probably a little bit in the middle. like, well, if Amazon can get it here between four and seven a.m. tomorrow, you might be in luck. But otherwise, I am not leaving the house to do this. You know, and there is that, at least that’s a natural consequence, right? And neurodivergent or not, like if you haven’t planned far enough in advance, then that happens.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:22)
That’s the idea.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (35:27)
Again, affirming doesn’t necessarily mean that you are removing all barriers or doing all these things for people. Actually, this is a really good point that we may have gotten to, but I’ll mention it now. ⁓ When we think about accommodations, there’s this huge conversation that often comes up. How do we know if we’re accommodating versus how do we know when we’re enabling?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:52)
Mmm, great.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (35:53)
you know, are we just fostering learned helplessness? And I think that is a very valid, realistic question to have. So how do we know that we’re not enabling? The biggest factor for me that moves it from enabling for learned helplessness to accommodating is when kids are part of the process. When they understand and are talking to you, even at a very young age, about what works for them,
You know, I noticed that we’re struggling in this area. Again, it kind of goes back to some Ross Green collaborative problem solving type of stuff, right? Like I noticed that we’re struggling in this area. Let’s brainstorm some ideas about what might work. Okay, so this is the accommodation that we’ve decided on. How will we know if it’s working? How will we know that, how can we set it up so that you can be independent with this accommodation? How will we know when you no longer need this accommodation? It is,
really putting the ball in the kids court to help them learn that metacognitive strategy of self-reflection that is so necessary in order to then self-regulate. So for example, ⁓ you you have a student who needs to go to a distraction-free environment for testing. Okay, let’s talk to them about it. Okay, what classes do you think this is most helpful for? Do you need it for all your classes or just some? How will we know if it’s working?
How can we make sure that you have a way to communicate with your teacher when it’s a test day that you’re gonna go to this other environment rather than having your teacher come to you and say, hey, don’t forget, you need to go over here. I mean, we need to have some scaffolding and some support for that. But when I think about neurodiversity affirming schools and accommodations, again, that quote unquote real world, a lot of our students are gonna go on to college, right? Accommodations in the college setting look much different than they do in the K-12 setting.
So I heard someone talk about this at one point in time and he was working at a college and he’d supported a lot of the neurodivergent students there. And he said, the difference between accommodations in the K-12 system versus the university system is that in the K-12 system, accommodations are there to ⁓ ensure success. At the university, accommodations there are there to ensure access. And that is a much different framework. And when our students get to the university level, it’s very different from
school to school. you know, depending on what school they’re going to, depending on what systems they have in place. But ultimately, you don’t have a 504 plan. You don’t have an IEP. And what you can get at a university level is a letter of accommodation. Meaning, again, you have a distraction free test environment, you, ⁓ you know, get copies of the notes, I don’t know, whatever it is, I will tell you just as a side note, it is very uncommon for universities to offer extended time on assignments. It is extremely rare. So just FYI.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:43)
Hmm… Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (38:46)
But
what we need those kids to do though is like if they have a distraction free test environment as an accommodation at the university, it is their responsibility to make that appointment at the disability services office or whatever they call it there. It is their responsibility to make that time to go there and no professor and nobody is following them around to make sure that they’re accessing those accommodations. So we have to have this gradual release where we are building that independence for those accommodations.
But I also think it’s really important to realize like many neurodivergent people will need some sort of accommodation throughout their lifetime. But the difference is that they’re self accommodating. Like I can figure out the systems that work for me. I can figure out like I might need 12 different alarms on my phone to remind me to take my medication, whatever it is, but I’m the one who’s responsible for setting those alarms and following through on that. And so, you I think that that is.
⁓ I think that’s always the fear, right? That we’re just fostering learned helplessness and these kids aren’t going to be able to be independent. And I totally agree. It’s when we try to help them recognize what’s working and bring them into that process that we can really move it over to that accommodating side.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:55)
Yeah, yeah. I love that distinction. Yeah, the kid playing a role in the process. I’m going to be thinking about that. ⁓ I like it. I like it. It reminds me though, I’ve been meaning to ask this question throughout the interview. Maybe now is as good a time as any, but I’m curious what kind of ⁓ reactions you’ve gotten to your book so far ⁓ from, well, folks across the continuum. Yeah, but I guess schools primarily.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (40:18)
Everyone?
No, I think overall it’s been really well received. So the book was released back in January and even still today, I don’t check on a regular basis, but sometimes if I’m on Amazon, I’ll look to see how it’s, you know, how it’s selling or whatever. And it is consistently in the top 10 of all special education books on Amazon. And so, yeah, it’s still doing people.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:41)
Wow. Yeah.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (40:47)
are looking for a different, like they realize that the ways that they’ve been doing things aren’t necessarily working. And so they are looking for some of those strategies, ⁓ but it is a real paradigm shift. so, you know, this is kind of an interesting evolution, I think, of schools in general. So, ⁓ you know, I come from, I worked for a while in gifted education. And one of the,
big problems with gifted education that it is constantly trying to resolve is the fact that their identification processes are imperfect. And so we can just leave it at that. But what many schools have done to resolve this, and I know you’ve done a couple of episodes, at least one I know of, that talks about universal screening, where you are testing everybody at a grade level in order to identify the kids who are eligible for these services.
So I remember doing a training for some educators some years back and one of the teachers who had been there who had just been teaching for a long time, she said, I just don’t understand. I feel like the kids who are in these programs who are identified for the gifted programs are so different. We’re having so many issues that we never used to have. I’m like, yeah, well, that’s because it used to just be based on teacher nomination. And so it was kids who were.
highly verbal and compliant and that’s who got nominated. But now that we’re screening all of these kids in order to increase more than anything cultural and linguistic diversity in our gifted ed programs, we’re now also finding a lot of these kids who are twice exceptional have these other labels layered on top of that. ⁓ But it was hard for her to kind of wrap her head around. Now all these quote unquote behavior problems are showing up in my classroom that she never had.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:07)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (42:34)
previously. And so that’s like just one example, I think of just the evolution in general that we’re seeing in education. Like, I think that teachers are realizing that, ⁓ again, things that used to be viewed as disciplinary issues, ⁓ like, you know, the kid who won’t stay in their seat, you know, recognizing, okay, well, that’s not really a discipline issue. That’s maybe a sensory, you know, some other thing that’s going on there. ⁓ But
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:35)
Hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (43:03)
but it’s hard to break those old habits. It’s hard to break free from the way that you were taught. mean, so many of us, parent the way we were parented, we teach the way we were taught. ⁓ And even for educators who are fresh out of college, you take a ton of classes on math methods, how to teach math in the classroom. If you’re teaching elementary, like you have all these methods courses, social studies, science, reading, whatever.
And you know what they don’t focus on is you get one chapter on Ed of the Exceptional Child, or I’m sorry, one class on Ed of the Exceptional Child with one chapter on autism, one on ADHD, one on learning disabilities, one on whatever. it’s like, it’s a 16 week course and then, okay, go deal with this. And these are the things that then, depending on the school’s culture, depending on how things are set up within that school, ⁓ maybe there are some supports for learning how to.
manage classroom and support those other types of behaviors, but maybe not. But it’s, you I noticed that in all the schools, there will be a few people who are really bought in and who are really driving some of this. ⁓ Other people who are kind of coming along, you know, and kind of recognizing it. then others who, you know, it’s just hard, change is hard. We’re human.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (44:16)
Sure, sure. Yeah, it reminds me of the whole dilemma of how we get no business education, even though many of us go into private practice. I’ve heard this so many times about, you know, like teachers get very little help and support or instruction around managing and, you know, teaching different kinds of kids and behavior.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (44:23)
Yes, ⁓ totally.
Yep.
Isn’t it so interesting? Yeah. And I agree though, it’s like having been on both sides of it and having started a private practice, it’s like, I’m like, I don’t know, I’m just figuring it out as I go. Like at least in the school system, there were other teachers around me who were kind of, you know, a little, a little bit available, at least if I had questions, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s not as practical. It’s very, you know, this education is very theoretical, which is great, but also like, okay, so now what, now what am I doing?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (44:36)
my gosh.
haha
yeah.
Absolutely. I would love to pivot to maybe more practical ideas for us as psychologists, neuropsychologists, you know, and being in the position you’re in, I think you have a really unique perspective to comment on. Maybe we just start with like, what gaps are you seeing between neuropsych evals and like private evals, maybe we’ll just say that, private evaluations and
what we’re recommending and what the schools can actually implement. ⁓ Because I think we’re doing our best and we like write these reports. They’re beautiful, they’re long, they’re dense, they have a million recommendations. And my guess, and what I’ve heard is that a lot of that gets forgotten or ignored.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (45:46)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Well, it is such a different world. And you don’t, again, you don’t know what you don’t know. I think the biggest issue is recognizing that a medical diagnosis of anything does not equate necessarily to an IEP. you know, an individualized education plan specifically is ⁓ regulated by
IDEA, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. And there are 13 specific categories that you must fall into in order to qualify for those services. And it has to have educational impact. If it is an IEP, now you can have a 504 plan for accommodations that is not necessarily impacting academics, although some administrators don’t realize that, but that’s a separate conversation. But that is, I think, the
biggest issue that I see when I see reports coming in with people with advocates. Sometimes even the primary care doctor will write a letter saying, the student needs an IEP. It’s like, And so that is a big one. ⁓ Actually, to dig into that just a little bit more, depending on where you are, it’s always so interesting how laws get interpreted in different ways.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:53)
the prescription for an IEP.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (47:09)
many people, especially if they do ⁓ assessments for autism specifically, that is one of the biggest disconnects as far as IEPs goes because the way that the law is written and the way that it defines an educational identification of autism versus a medical diagnosis of autism is that in that educational identification, again, it has to have the academic impact, but it also has to have a language delay.
And so as we know, like when the new DSM came out specifically, ⁓ that kind of got switched around where we now have the social communication differences, but it’s not specific to a language delay. Like we recognize that there’s pragmatic language, there are other ways that language can be impacted. But if you’re in a school system that follows that very directly, they will say, well, this student doesn’t have a language delay and they didn’t have a language delay when they were in early childhood. So therefore they cannot qualify under an educational identification of autism.
And so what they’ll end up doing is they’ll end up, if they qualify, pushing those kids off and over to an emotional disturbance identification, which just rubs me the wrong way, but because it is more related to the emotions and behaviors. In the long run, I’m like, whatever gets the kid the support that they need, but that is, I think, of the big issues. ⁓ We do assessments at our office. ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:17)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (48:31)
We have a clinical psych who works with us and does all this. But I do a lot of the meetings with folks ahead of time to kind of talk through and kind of make sure that what they’re really wanting is what they actually need. And so many parents come in and say, well, I want to do this assessment so they can get an IEP. And I feel like the first thing I do is say, OK, go back to your school because we can do an assessment here, but there is no guarantee. even if we do an assessment, they are still going to have to go. You’re going to have to jump through the school’s hoops.
and you’re just going to prolong it and it’s going to take longer to get that IEP, it’s better to go through the school’s process first. And then if you don’t get a resolution, then come to us and let’s talk about, know, a 504 plan or whatever that might be. But, you know, I don’t think there’s so many people who don’t really understand kind of those differences between the educational identification, it’s not a diagnosis, and then a medical diagnosis. So that’s a huge thing that I see.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And I think it’s all best intentions, certainly. Psychologists do the best that they can, when they can.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (49:33)
Totally, well, you haven’t been there. You know, it’s like, yeah.
Well, talking about like, you don’t get all the practical strategies. They don’t teach you, if you wanna do, know, assessments for kids when you’re going through your neuropsych program or whatever, you’re probably not getting a a class on how to collaborate with schools, you know, and recognizing what those differences are. You know, I think the other part is like just as far as accommodations, like recognizing that, you know, it’s just accommodations,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:53)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (50:02)
are not always practical. think one of the things that ⁓ I like to do with my clients when I’m working with them is recognizing, they’ll say, well, I want this accommodation for my kid. I’m like, well, I’ve been in the schools. The schools are not set up to do that. So again, what’s the actual thing that we’re talking about and how can we then try to work through this? And so I guess just from the assessment process, doing those feedback sessions and having conversations with those families and recognizing like,
here are the accommodations I’m putting in this plan. I don’t know that all of these will necessarily get put into, know, formalized in any way. However, the goal of these is this, if they can’t do this, have a conversation with the school to say, what other alternatives do you have that might work with the system? And just helping families have that, because it’s so hard for families to navigate that process, you know, as far as ⁓ figuring out like what they can and can’t have when they’re working in the schools.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:01)
Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Are there, mean, can you think of anything in addition that can help us make our reports more school friendly, quote unquote, so that recommendations might be more likely to, to go through.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (51:13)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm,
mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it’s tricky because again, it varies so much from school to school. Like you might recommend, for example, like assistive technology in some way, right? And then, but I know a lot of schools have gone to like no phones. So I live in Missouri, right? And so now we have a bell to bell, no phone policy statewide.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Same.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (51:46)
And
so what’s interesting, so like my oldest has a 504 and we never had to have this accommodation, but one of the things that he would do is he would listen to music in his earbuds when he’s working on things because it helps drown out the other noise and that works for him. Well, it never needed to be an accommodation because they were just allowed to have their phones and their earbuds, whatever. But now this year it’s his senior year and he’s struggling with that and we haven’t quite gone down that path yet, but you know, it’s like,
we may have to advocate for some sort of accommodation there. ⁓ But I guess my point with that only is recognizing like, if you aren’t super familiar with the schools specifically, it’s hard to tailor those recommendations based on what they can do. ⁓ Probably, I would say, the thing that would help those accommodations be better. ⁓
better received by the school is in your reports, if you explain the why. Like we can look at it, we can look at all the data, we know what all those tests mean, we can write those recommendations based on our knowledge, but to make that connection from point A to point B for people who are educators, they might not be as well versed in that. So if you wanna say, like we know that we have this slow processing speed here for this student.
So like here, don’t just put the accommodation like extended time for classroom assignments or whatever, no time test, whatever. Just put that little piece in there and say, ⁓ due to this student’s slower processing speed, what is it that supports that accommodation? And I feel like maybe the schools might be more receptive than to finding a way to make that accommodation even if
Whereas otherwise they might just say, we can’t do that. And I think that that’s part of that communication process.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (53:41)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that makes sense. Are there any simple, you might even say like overlooked accommodations that can make a big difference that we might, yeah, we might forget about or otherwise miss?
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (53:58)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah. I don’t think that this is quite answering your question, but it is a nuance about accommodations that I think is something to consider. So quite often an accommodation will be extended time on assignments, meaning like no late ⁓ points off or whatever for turning something in late.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:10)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (54:22)
⁓ And in my mind, while that might feel like it is affirming, it feels like it is helping. When we go back to that learned helplessness piece, actually find that that is not a blanket, no late assignments, you can turn it in whenever, actually is really unhelpful for most neurodivergent kids. So I had a client at one point in time ⁓ who was a high school student when he was… ⁓
during COVID and he started doing online school and finished out online school that way. And there were never any deadlines. So then at the end of every semester, he would have a panic of about two and a half to three weeks where he had to get everything done. And that’s the thing. It’s like, there is always a deadline of some type. so, you know, so then when he went to college and we were looking through one of his syllabi and I said, this professor doesn’t accept any late work, but you know, you’ve got all your dates here. We can kind of work through this. And he’s like,
He goes, how am gonna do this? You know, I said, well, instead of having one big panic, you’ll just have little panics throughout the semester. And he goes, I’m used to the big panic. And I was like, okay, well, let’s figure it out. But actually that was much better for him. His stress level was actually greatly reduced because it was segmented that way. And so an accommodation reframe that I would say instead of just extended time on assignments, I would say negotiable deadlines on assignments, where if something comes up and you need an extra day or two,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:24)
No.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (55:44)
fine, we can do that, but we’re gonna do it on a case by case basis. We’re gonna put that self advocacy piece in so that you have to then communicate with that teacher. But just having a blanket like we’ll just turn it in whenever, that actually is so little structure, it’s actually detrimental. It’s almost as bad as like having hard and fast deadlines throughout the entire semester.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And I’ve talked with so many people, both neurodivergent and not, who say, I need a deadline to get things done. ⁓ If it was like completely open ended, that sounds really hard actually.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (56:16)
I am that way.
I don’t know, for me it’s like if it’s
open-ended, it’s going to the bottom of the priority list and I will probably never get to the bottom of that list. And so, I’m trying to think of some other really like underutilized accommodations. ⁓ You know, I think just sensory accommodations in general, like really just kind of focusing on how regulating that can be and again, normalizing that for, you know, in the reports for educators to try to figure out like how really you can help. Because I feel like,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (56:27)
Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (56:50)
When we talk about, for example, stimming behaviors, those repetitive behaviors that a lot of autistic people do ⁓ for a long time, like I can’t tell you how many clients I’ve had come in who get the happy flappy hands when they get really excited. And ⁓ I just remember a couple of them said, no, I’m supposed to have quiet hands. And I’m like, OK, you know, when when people are engaging in that type of behavior, that is serving a purpose. It is not purposeless. It is.
helping them with executive functioning, it’s helping them with emotional regulation, like there is some sort of piece. So unless it is self injurious, being able to find ways to make those accommodations through other sensory supports can be really helpful. You kind of mentioned earlier talking about how so many classrooms have, ⁓ it’s hard to do this with like, you know, got 30 kids in the classroom. I totally agree. Like that really is a nuanced thing for educators to think about. ⁓ But when I think about how ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (57:18)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (57:47)
how we really are. ⁓ I’m gonna stop and restate this just for a second because I lost my train of thought. ⁓ Okay, so you mentioned earlier about how we have, like it’s hard to manage this in a classroom of like 30 kids, which really is very true. ⁓ But the way that I think about this is actually a colleague, a friend who kind of jokes about this, he goes, well, the thing about accommodations is that everyone in the classroom just needs to be mutually inconvenienced a little bit.
And so recognizing that like there might be some days when that student needs to not pace in the back of the classroom because you know it’s distracting to one of the other students but there might be times when that other student maybe needs to go sit somewhere else for themselves. Like how do we build that in but then talk about that compromise, figure out what works. But those sensory things really can make in the long run. ⁓
really big difference and trying to integrate that into those accommodations can really help.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (58:52)
Nice. Nice. I like that. There’s so much that we could talk about and we, the time is flying. The time is flying. So I might start to close with maybe a philosophical question and a future oriented question, but the philosophical component is how do you, I mean, you’ve seen and done and written about lots of different scenarios, right? And I’m curious how you personally kind of stay hopeful maybe and, um,
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (59:07)
Okay.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (59:21)
practical maybe when you run into systems or schools that maybe don’t have a ton of resources and can’t meet every need that we would like.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (59:31)
Yeah. I think for me personally, so most of my direct student work right now is in my mental health practice, right? And so when I see those kids have even just very small wins, when I see them able to self advocate, when I see them making, you know, and feeling comfortable with a friend, like, I feel like those are the things that keep me hopeful.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (59:49)
Hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (59:59)
And the other part is when you start having conversations with educators and they realize that a lot of this is just more than anything starts with a mindset shift, I feel like they think they have to start over and like rebuild their classroom from the ground up. They don’t, they just need to kind of shift how they’re approaching some of these things. And when they realize that that’s the starting point, they feel like they can do that. They feel competent in order to make some of those changes.
And I think the last thing that kind of gives me that feeling kind of just as far as seeing that change is just about ⁓ recognizing how many educators, clinicians, people I talk to who themselves had really uncomfortable school experiences and realizing when they go, ⁓ this would have been so helpful for me.
knowing that those people are then going to go and advocate for those changes, then that’s something again. And it’s just little by little, but it definitely can be frustrating. ⁓ know, sometimes we put stuff up on social media and we get really anything, anything that has the term diversity, right? Like it’s kind of a hot ⁓ topic these days and we’ll get all sorts of comments from all sorts of people and you know, but you know, it just is what it is. We’re gonna keep on moving forward with it.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:01:15)
yes.
That’s a nice segue, I think. was going to ask you where you see this conversation going in the future around neurodiversity in schools and elsewhere.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (1:01:34)
Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s a tricky time in our world. Yes, and ⁓ I think that, ⁓ I don’t know, it’s scary. It’s scary because like, I mean, I don’t know when exactly this will be released, but right now as we’re recording it, like we’ve just had information come out that ⁓ Tylenol is related to.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:01:42)
Yes, these trying times.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (1:02:03)
causing autism, right? And so I get fearful that we’re going to move backwards in some ways in this movement. I also know that there are people who are not willing to accept that and who are not willing to ⁓ allow that to happen and will continue to move forward with this. And I will also say that when I talk to educators, when I talk to clinicians, people realize that these are the changes that
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:02:09)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (1:02:32)
are affected and that they need. people get so caught up in what you call something, like, is it neurodiversity, neurodivergent, whatever. like, no, let’s just do what’s good for this kid right in front of us right now and keep moving forward. Because I don’t believe anyone goes into any of these helping professions without having that be the hope and the goal is about supporting people to ⁓ reach whatever goals or outcomes that
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:02:39)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (1:03:01)
that they want in their lives. And so that gives me hope.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:03:06)
Yeah, yeah, I like that. It’s so true when you remove the language, ⁓ it can make a big difference and then people can’t necessarily get super fired up about it. If you’re just presenting it like, let’s just teach this kid and support this kid. Yeah, there’s so much, gosh, there’s so much to say about that, but I’m going to leave that for now. And
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (1:03:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, this is right. Absolutely.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:03:33)
close just to give people a sense of how they can get in touch with you.
you have lots of things on the internet and things that people can interact with.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (1:03:42)
Yeah, I’ve got all sorts of stuff. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, ⁓ you know, definitely check out the Neurodiversity Podcast. That’s my podcast. I don’t think we even mentioned it at the beginning, but that’s totally fine. If you like listening to this type of stuff, it’s a lot of focus on parenting and educating neurodivergent kids. So that would be one recommendation. ⁓ Amanda and I actually did a limited series podcast on creating neurodiversity affirming schools is the name of that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:03:58)
Yeah.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (1:04:10)
podcast and it aligns with the book, but you don’t have to have the book. So if you work in the schools, not only might it be useful for you, but it might be great to share with your colleagues. ⁓ And then, yeah, you know, find me on social media. I’m pretty much all of the places other than Twitter, may it rest in peace and, ⁓ you know, all of the. ⁓ But you can, yeah, find me and connect with me. That would be awesome. And, ⁓ you know, just, yeah, whatever, whatever we can do to kind of help move all of this work forward.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:04:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, I’ll put all those links in the show notes, of course, for folks to check that out. But yeah, I love what you’re doing. I love what you’re doing. And you know, I’m sad that Amanda couldn’t be here, but glad that we could have this conversation and just start to dig into some really important topics and give people a lot of resources.
Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC (1:04:56)
Yeah.
Well, I really appreciate you having the invitation for us and hopefully it’ll be meaningful to your audience.
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