Dr. Jeremy Sharp (00:01)
Jennifer Hey, welcome to the podcast.
Jennifer (00:04)
Thank you. It’s very excited to be here, Jeremy, and thank you for the invitation to join you.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (00:11)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I’m excited to chat with you. You this is, you kind of occupy a very interesting and compelling niche that is assessment adjacent. So I’m thrilled to bring all of this to our audience. I think it’s super interesting.
Jennifer (00:22)
Yeah.
me too.
Me too. And we work so closely with psychologists that I’m really excited to talk about that intersection.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (00:37)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, you know, before we jump into it, I always ask this question, you know, why this is important, like of all the things you could spend your time and energy on. Why, why this?
Jennifer (00:48)
Yeah.
I love that question. So my personal story is somewhat related to why I’m here and what I think is important about not only what I do, but how psychologists have really benefited me and my family. So I have a special needs son, actually have two who have had psychological evals. And my son was diagnosed very early in his life with ⁓ PDD-NOS, which I don’t need to explain to your audience.
persistent developmental delay, not otherwise specified, which was kind of a rule in rule out for what’s going on with a little kid. And this was well before autism was screened by pediatricians and there was more about what autism, ⁓ how it manifests early in life. And so as we went through his development, we’ve had many neuropsychological evals, psychoeducation evals because he had an IEP. And I think
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:33)
Mm.
Jennifer (01:49)
where the rubber met the road for me was in his freshman year of high school. We really hit an intersection of anxiety, autism, executive function.
question auditory processing, all these overlapping diagnoses. And I had him attend a very specific program that was ⁓ an interactive and interwoven both treatment and testing ⁓ with a very prominent psychologist who did ⁓ a full workup, which included not only his history of psychological testing for school,
and for, he actually were also in a research study at the University of Michigan and just take everything together and then add on this auditory processing with an audiologist who came in and did even more. And the outcome of that huge neuropsychological cognitive profile with all the added things for somebody who might be on the spectrum, well, he was, ⁓ really was the footprint and pathway
to his successful experience of high school and gave us even a better roadmap for how do I support him and what he needed, which wound up being a therapeutic boarding school to help with all of the components of what his cognitive and personality and neurological hard wiring and soft wiring needed. And so for me, I kind of grew up with him
from the age of three on with these neuropsychological tests that evolved over time. And it behooved me to understand them so that when he did get to that kind of tipping point for our family and needed to leave home, we were really able to understand how important knowing what is going on and what is not going on was gonna benefit him for the next step, whatever that was.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (03:40)
Mm.
Sure, Yeah, I mean these personal experiences I feel like guide many of us in our career choices, Yeah, that’s a lovely story.
Jennifer (04:07)
Yeah. Yeah. And he…
Yeah, and he needed to go on to residential treatment, therapeutic boarding school, and actually some alternative boarding schools. So that is really one of the reasons that this ⁓ profession was calling me at a point in life when I was able to make some different choices about how I spent my time and what was a passion for me was really my experience with, you know, my goodness gracious.
I have to have my child leave home to get better. And what does that say about all sorts of things regarding families, parenting, and his needs, which can be very scary to feel a little bit unsure. And put the complete trust in a group of people you may not know that well.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel like you can’t overstate that emotional component. I mean, I have not been in that place, but just hearing you describe it and seeing other families go through it, there’s so many layers. I mean, this is what you’re working with day to day, but just helping people navigate a really fraught emotional process. There’s a lot wrapped up in that. It was pretty intense.
Jennifer (05:08)
Yeah.
Right.
It can be. And usually by the time people get to us, they’ve tried everything else, right? They’ve tried outpatient therapy. They’ve tried occupational therapy. They may have had a speech and language pathologist. They may have had a psychiatrist. Most of them have. And
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:31)
Hmm.
Jennifer (05:44)
the whole team, the home team, even with perhaps special education in school, ⁓ isn’t really getting the job done. the parents come to me with, we don’t know what to do. nobody on our team really has ideas other than moving our child into an out of home experience. And what does that look like? And how do we get there? And which one is it? And why? And so most families come to me, some in crisis, somewhere
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (06:07)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (06:14)
we’ve got in a really acute, you know, danger to self or other situation where really I have to dive into a very ⁓ complex mental health issue. But some families come to me with.
We think this is coming. Here’s some ideas. This has been recommended to us. We have no idea what this is. Can you guide us through the whole pathway of what this is? And I have a little bit more time. Typically, I ask families for at least four weeks, but some parents come to me and they’re like, we’ve got a couple of months here. We just really want to understand more about what’s happening. And we’re working on keeping our child at home. Let’s see if we can do that. So there’s a lot of different variations of where
parents are. One thing is common. Everybody is very emotional. Everybody’s very scared.
and the ability to connect with a family on a personal basis, having been a little bit, I, you I never put myself in their shoes. I don’t know their experience, but I can empathize a little bit more with, yeah, you’re sitting in this big unknown with a lot of competing voices and I’m going to be here to give you a very clear pathway. And I’m going to be very clear about my opinions. And that could be where
we maybe agree and disagree, but I want you to have the whole package and have a full understanding of what the embarkation of having your child leave home looks like.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (07:48)
Of course, of course. This might be a good time just to, before we go further, kind of set some background. So, I mean, I would love for you to describe for people what you actually do, you know, like how do you define your role? ⁓ how is this different from other people we might work with, you know, what kind of placements are we talking about? So let’s dive into that for a second.
Jennifer (07:54)
Sure.
Sure.
Sure.
Sure, sure.
that’s such a great question because we’re really a niche. There are probably 300 therapeutic, what I would consider therapeutic, educational and young adult transition specialists in the country that are very, very active. ⁓ And by active, mean, you know, have having continuous stream of clients and work, ⁓ research, et cetera. And so what our specialty is, is the combination of children and young adults who
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (08:23)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (08:38)
who probably have both some academic, educational need and a therapeutic need. So where that bridges and how that overlaps is that’s a very general kind of what is a therapeutic ed consultant. So most, and I’m gonna speak for me and just generalize with most of my colleagues, but for those out there who have a broader practice and may have a niche in ⁓ what I do more specifically.
⁓ You know, I don’t want to speak for everybody. So I’ll just generalize and say more about how I work. ⁓
academic piece, the therapeutic piece overlaps. So what I do not do is educational consulting for a very traditional boarding school or college consulting, or I do not do local private schools. So some folks come to me and say, hey, we’ve got a non-traditional learner. There are some private schools locally. Can you help us navigate that? No, that’s not what I do. 100 % of my clients leave the home for some type of alternative
boarding school, therapeutic boarding school. I sometimes do placements in outdoor programs that have been historically referred to as wilderness, but I will tell you, so many of them now I would consider glamping. I’m not sure. ⁓ Some have a very traditional like outward bound kind of wildernessy feel, ⁓ but so many of them now have related to what the feedback has been from our community and from parents, is how can we
use the outdoors without having ⁓ such an extreme experience, even though I will tell you, think some of those more extreme experiences, ⁓ which is loosely defined, can be that pivotal thing that a child needs. So I work with acute psychiatric hospitals for clients of mine who are so severely compromised that they need a secure environment for us to suss out what’s going on. And in those environments, there
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (10:35)
Sure, sure.
Jennifer (10:49)
are ⁓ hospital-based psychologists who do that testing for us. ⁓ When I have a client out in a outdoor program, I bring in psychologists to do neuropsychological testing for my clients where they are. And most of my clients come to me with neuropsychological testing. So it’s rare that I have any kind of client where they haven’t come to me with testing. We don’t, we may do new testing on
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (11:11)
Hmm.
Jennifer (11:19)
on top of maybe some older testing or for a family that’s never had that deep dive into what’s going on. ⁓ I would say there’s a handful of families that I have not recommended that we do a full neuropsychological about. So in terms of why we’re different is we really do take into account everything around the mental health, cognitive processes, learning differences, know, maybe prog.
looking into budding, is there a budding mood personality, especially when we get into our young adults? What does that look like? How has it held the child back? And then if there is an academic component with my younger kids, I start with kids who are about 10. What does it look like in middle school to help you just develop the basics? Junior high kids, same kind of thing, but high school, it’s really how do we get credit so that we can graduate with a diploma and for whatever thing we want to do.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:08)
Mm.
Jennifer (12:20)
after high school? How do we get there and what does that look like? And so it’s really a very complicated puzzle and matrix of very specific prescription and research on each family and each child ⁓ about
what, and most of these are short term, so what kind of next 12 to 18 months is going to be necessary so that coming back to baseline and very likely coming back home, which is the goal, ⁓ what does that look like and how do we get there? So hopefully that’s a good overall generalization.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I would love to bring it to life a little bit and maybe talk through a typical, you know, a typical case from like first point of contact to whatever ending or terminating looks like for you. And then I’ll probably jump in and just ask questions along the way to suss out some details, but maybe we start there.
Jennifer (13:11)
Okay.
Okay.
great.
that’s I love that. So first of all, I have to wordsmith. There is no typical right ⁓ because I. Right. So I work with children as young as 10 and young adults who are, you know, almost approaching 25 where, you know, we we literally, you know, physically become adults, you know, in the most concrete of ways, give or take. Right. ⁓ So, you know, and I work with neuro diverse kids, spectrum.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (13:40)
Yeah, yeah, that’s totally fair.
Hehehehe
Jennifer (14:01)
ADHD and then I also work with substance abuse dual diagnosis and I also work with primary mental health. So in terms of the broad range, I’ll just pick ⁓ a cool kid that I’m working with ⁓ who has ⁓ perhaps come out the other side and we’ll go from there. How’s that?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (14:23)
Yeah,
great. Let’s do it.
Jennifer (14:23)
Okay,
so I started working with this ⁓ young girl when she was, I believe it was eighth grade, it could have been seventh grade. Mostly primary mental health, some trauma and self harm and some suicidal ideation. So really little to be that deep into ⁓ needing out of home support. When our family first came to me, we were still in the do we, do we not, how do we know? And so
started with ⁓ what I would call like a middle therapeutic experience with a boarding school that had some therapeutic support, but some kids were there without therapeutic support. So a nice balance of supportive environment. She did not do well there and needed a higher level of care. And so then her family and I were looking for what would be that level of care and where. And we found for a really sweet therapeutic boarding school,
very creative girl. So one of the things I would love to say to people is kids need to have fun and they have passions and interests and I think those can be overlooked. And so we found this really great place with a creative arts ⁓ based process and some art therapy, more creative outings. ⁓ So I would say my sporty girls would probably not thrive there, right? They had a great trauma therapist. They did a really good job.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (15:49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (15:53)
at creating that bridge between middle school and high school. And it was a small program, great family work. Mom and dad were a little bit ⁓ separated on terms of what they thought she needed. They were ⁓ not together, but they were very good co-parents, just very different. And so part of my job is also to be able to support each parent’s point of view. So this program did a really good job of doing that. She was there about a year and a half.
In 10th grade, she went to what I would consider a more traditional boarding school, but again, working with her family, finding something that was understanding of what a therapeutic boarding school experience was like for her, and then what kind of supports to ease her back into maybe a more typical learning ⁓ environment. Again, very small, curated for her, just talked with her mom, and she’s graduating this year.
and her top choice college not to be… ⁓
Well, I’ll just say University of Chicago. Not that there aren’t great colleges all over the country, but for me, seeing her go from somebody who was extremely at risk of taking her life to applying to an incredibly aggressive ⁓ college choice was just overwhelmingly gratifying. ⁓ so that was a client that I worked with. ⁓
Again, I can give you ⁓ other clients that may start off in an outdoor program and then we move them to a therapeutic boarding school or an acute psych hospital and we move them ⁓ into a shorter term residential treatment and then into a PHP back at home. ⁓ But ubiquitously, again, all of these kids have had at least one neuropsychological evaluation to guide not only
my recommendations, but the treatment planning once the client gets to the program. ⁓ So my process starts really at the assessment. not a psychologist, ⁓ but what I do is take the full assessment of the neuropsychologist, the parents ⁓ history, maybe a pediatrician, psychiatrist. ⁓ I’ve even talked with rabbis.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (18:06)
Yeah.
Jennifer (18:29)
what is going to help me understand this child? And I pull Rabbi out because that was really the first time that a family said this is a really important person in our family and to understand us and my child, we’d really like you to talk to them. But you know, coaches, tutors, speech and language pathologists. So my job is to curate all of this information to be able to provide parents with that direction. And so with this young lady, it really wasn’t about learning differences. really wasn’t about
neurodiversity. It really wasn’t about substance abuse. It was really this primary mental health and some trauma she had experienced and this extreme sense of ⁓ depression and ⁓
what’s the point of being here, just giving up? And what does that look like? ⁓ So to have somebody go from eighth grade and just feel so sad and so bereft and so, you know, really suicidal to wanting to go to the University of Chicago and feeling strong enough and capable enough to do so, I mean, even any college would be great. ⁓ And as an aside, what I do, I just put in here, since we’re talking about this case, ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (19:44)
Many families ask me, my goodness, is this going to jeopardize my child’s ability to go to college? And you can see the answer is absolutely not. If your child is college ready, college eligible, wants to go to college, all of my clients go to college if they want to, and they have the ability to apply and enroll. And I think that that ⁓ is a very reasonable question when you have a child who’s
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:44)
Mm-hmm.
Great question.
Jennifer (20:14)
in high school who’s expressed an interest in going to college and then we have to take perhaps a left turn in order to get them back on track.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:23)
Sure, sure. I love that. That’s a great illustrative example. I definitely want to go back and ⁓ talk through different components of that whole process. there’s so many questions, but maybe I’ll start with, I don’t know if this is the first question necessarily, but something that comes up is just like, how do you know when another level of care is needed? I feel like this is a big question for parents, you know, like, cause that…
Jennifer (20:33)
Okay. Yeah.
Okay.
Yep.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (20:52)
and full transparency like that, even like recommending a higher level of care feels like a big leap in a lot of cases for me, you know, as a clinician. And so, yeah, I’m just curious how you kind of suss out, okay, how do we know that like outpatient hasn’t worked or even like an IOP or whatever else might be available, you know, on kind of the local level? Like, how do you know it’s time to jump to a more intensive option?
Jennifer (21:01)
Right?
It’s…
Yeah, and for your psychological testing and your practices, it’s a really great question because there are so many options and what does failure look like in an IOP, right? What does it look like to have tried outpatient? ⁓ And so when is that leap to residential? I’ll just call it residential treatment from now on with the caveat that that includes everything I’ve said, plus probably some other
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (21:28)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (21:47)
know, variations, ⁓ is one of the questions that we get a lot, especially when we take inquiry calls from families of, you know, is this the right time? Am I the right fit? And by the way, I would also invite anybody who is listening, ⁓ who is a psychologist and knows of an ed consultant, whether it’s, you know, somebody in my particular, you know, field or otherwise, to use us as resources, you know, pick up the
phone and say, this is the student that I’m working with or this is the young adult that I’m working with and I’m noticing this, is this somebody who could benefit or am I missing something or are there ways of looking at this that you might consider? ⁓ Not that you’re missing anything, but I think sometimes that collaboration can be really helpful. I have neuropsychologists that call me and say, hey, I’m maybe sending somebody your way.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:44)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (22:46)
This is kind of what I think is going on. I’ll keep you posted and we can even have a dialogue there where I’ll say, you know, if you haven’t tried this or tell me a little bit more because not everybody needs to land in my practice for sure. Yeah, so what? Go ahead. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:02)
Yeah. So quick detour, just real quick. Where would we find,
is there like a repository of you all? Like, I don’t even know who I would call except for you, of course, but I don’t know where to find these folks. Like, is there a place that we could look if we wanted to connect with people?
Jennifer (23:21)
Yeah, there are two
particular organizations and maybe we’ll put them in whatever kind of notes you have. ⁓ There are two professional organizations. One’s called the IECA, Independent Educational Consultant Association. And there is a roster on that website of therapeutic consultants. And you can search by that particular. They also are a majority, I will just say, college consulting. So on that list,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (23:28)
That’d be great.
Mm.
Jennifer (23:51)
may pull out 50 of us that are therapeutic out of like the 3,000 members, but there is a search function there. I would also say that there is an organization called, ⁓ sorry, that was a text that came through. ⁓ We are taping in a real light setting. ⁓ Called the, ⁓ I just lost you for a second, called the, ⁓
Therapeutic Consulting Association or TCA. And that is an organization that is specifically for therapeutic consultants. anybody who has a branch out of that primarily still has to do therapeutic consulting as their main profession and their main driver of their practice. And that is a smaller organization, but you know when you go to that website that everybody there is going to be within the wheelhouse of doing therapeutic educational consulting.
I’ll share those websites with you. ⁓ I would say those are the ways if there’s a global search you want to do by state or by age range, you can definitely do that. I will say that most of us have a national practice, especially post COVID. It’s very interesting. Many families don’t really even in my backyard feel the need to meet with me. ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (25:10)
Okay.
Jennifer (25:20)
I generally went to everybody’s home to meet them ⁓ during my assessment process. Now a lot of people are just so comfortable with getting to know me, my practice and vice versa over Zoom that ⁓ I don’t do as much, but that’s also opened up my practice to a very national presence. And just as an aside, I do have a Raleigh, North Carolina office. So that allows us to really ⁓
broadly serve the country in terms of lots of time zones at least. So ⁓ I think that was the answer to your question. how do we find, how do we, how do we find, how do we find, yeah, somebody like us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was it. I got it.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (25:56)
Nice. Nice.
Yeah, yeah, I know I’m taking this down also.
Yeah, yeah.
And now we can steer back to how do we know when a higher level of care is necessary? Yeah.
Jennifer (26:13)
Yeah, yes,
so broad strokes.
outpatient hasn’t IOP, so intensive outpatient, PHP, partial hospitalization, maybe including mentoring, coaching, psychiatrist, maybe a child has some special education needs and they have an IEP that’s been supporting their learning differences. So I would say that’s number one. That’s not the only thing. ⁓ Generally, children come to me when they’re not going to school.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (26:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (26:48)
or if they’re going, they’re staying two periods, ⁓ or they go and they leave, or they go and they spend their whole day in the counseling office. So school avoidance, school refusal, ⁓ even some children that are on the cusp of being truant. So that’s another hallmark of when to consider something deeper is that the vocation your child should be engaging in
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (27:00)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (27:18)
is education, right? Like ours is going to work and getting stuff done and right. Children, it’s going to school. So when that vocation is not ⁓ being accomplished on a daily basis and progress isn’t being made there, that’s another opportunity to think, is there something out of the home that will support the learning environment? And usually that is tied to a learning difference or a learning difference that has resulted in some kind of mental anguish. ⁓
And then of course, we also have kids who, ⁓ as you probably know, have learning differences and decide to self-medicate. And then that also gets in their way, right? And that could lead to school refusal. I also have clients that like will go, but will sit with their heads on the desks all day and then fail everything. So are they going? Are they staying? Yes. But are they progressing? No. So I would say, you know, the therapeutic piece,
The academic piece, ⁓ I would say a lot of our clients have some tech isolation. So what is their social emotional score? ⁓ When they’re home, even if they’ve gone to school, are they in their room all day? Are they participating in family activities? Are they still doing things they were passionate about? Great soccer player, loves soccer, had a bad season, decided that they didn’t like soccer anymore. A lot of self-loathing.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (28:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (28:48)
maybe some shame, goes into their room and then becomes addicted to technology. Hey, we’ve got a safe group of friends here. I don’t come out of my room. And then I stopped participating in what I call life. So that therapeutic piece, they still may be doing outpatient therapy, but they can check the boxes, right? So are they succeeding in outpatient? We could say yes. Are they going to school? We could say yes. But that social emotional growth, especially post COVID,
Are they thriving social emotionally? So, so far we’ve covered school, outpatient or other kinds of therapeutic interventions and tech. I would also say…
the final piece, there are more than that, would be kids who are really at risk to themselves or others. So have there been a number of opportunities to go to a hospital because of a crisis intervention? Even if a child isn’t held at the hospital for, you know, let’s say that three-day period of assessment, even if it’s a 24-hour or 23 hours and 50 minutes or however it has to be, right? Is there a
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (29:37)
Hmm.
you
Jennifer (30:00)
of that kind of crisis management where there isn’t a pattern interrupt. And so I often say to parents, we need a pattern interrupt in order to really jumpstart whatever it is your child’s goals are, whatever it is your family’s goals are. ⁓ I think finally,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:15)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (30:19)
What is more obvious to everybody is physical escalation, aggression to mom and dad, punching holes in walls, ripping doors off the hinges, ⁓ breaking computers, taking mom’s phone, taking dad’s phone, stomping on it. ⁓ I’ve had kids get in the car and aggressively attack their parents because they want something and their parents have said no. So when we see that external
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:25)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (30:49)
and that’s not everybody, but when we see that external behavioral expression that hasn’t been ameliorated by the above other things I’ve talked about, that’s kind of a hallmark of we’re asking for help and nothing else is going to switch, change the dial from high escalation to low escalation, other than maybe leaving the home and the family system because everybody needs a break.
So there’s such a variety of what I would tell a parent or a psychologist to look for in terms of, you know, when the rubber meets the road and there are no other alternatives and you have all these things and probably more than one, that’s when somebody probably needs to leave home and do some kind of residential option.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (31:39)
That’s fair. I would imagine in these situations, there’s, I don’t know, a fair amount of resistance either on the kids part or the parents part, maybe ambivalence on the parent resistance on the kid. So maybe that’s the first question, like how often is that present? And then how do you work through it with parents and kiddos?
Jennifer (32:01)
Yeah.
So for sure, parents are ambivalent. I was one of those. ⁓ I had a psychiatrist tell me, know, your son probably is going to need this residential option. And that was six months before I was able to make that decision. So, you know, I just felt like, no, we can figure this out. Let’s try this. Let’s try that. I wasn’t ready. I didn’t feel like he was ready. And it was a scary proposition.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:08)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (32:32)
So you’re totally right that the parents ambivalence and I would often say, Jeremy, that a lot of parents come to me saying I’m a failure. I should have done this two years ago. I shouldn’t have made that choice. And so the ambivalence and the… ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:49)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (32:56)
was the word you used, ⁓ not restriction, resistance, thanks, to making that next step often is I don’t know what to do, but I must have failed. And I just want to tell everybody out there listening, needing to have your child leave home is not a parenting failure.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (32:59)
like resistance or…
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Jennifer (33:19)
We don’t know how to help our kids until we know how to help our kids. And sometimes that is when we get to the point of, wow, this is now the boiling frog analogy where we’re really at that boiling part. And I didn’t know this was coming because the water just kept getting warmer and warmer. And I thought we could do it. And now we can’t. So resistance for parents oftentimes by the time they get to me is a lower threshold. The resistance comes when sometimes I make a recommendation
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (33:32)
Yeah.
Jennifer (33:48)
and then it feels scary. And the most obvious is a wilderness program because most families feel that’s punitive or their child won’t be able to handle it or ⁓ they’ll hate them forever and it’s gonna be too hard, which I have a whole separate discussion about. ⁓ But that’s more of where I get that resistance. I think…
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (34:08)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (34:17)
The conversation about teenagers being resistant is more fraught with ⁓ emotion for the parents and also a lot of fear.
90 % of the teenagers that I work with probably don’t even know I exist until they get into treatment. They don’t meet with me. They don’t know about me. This is really a parent decision, a guardianship decision, a team decision with all the outpatient therapists because most of my referrals come from outpatient therapists, former families that have worked with me, psychiatrists, ⁓ sometimes tutors, and sometimes neuropsychologists, of
who know me ⁓ and have worked with the child who they can tell is going to need more than whatever is in the home base and everybody’s got different resources, right? What I have in San Francisco as a resource may not exist in another state where mental health isn’t really as available ⁓ as it might be here. ⁓ So I will just say right off the bat, I’ll just say this blankly, no teen wants to
to treatment. They don’t. They like their home. It’s comfortable. Even if they’re dysregulated, even if they’re kicking tires and the police are coming to their house.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:40)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Jennifer (35:48)
Why would they want to leave? So far, so good. Right? So that is a big decision. And I think that’s the conversation I have with parents on boundaries, choices, and third parties.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:54)
Right.
And how do you, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s exactly, yeah, that sounds like a nice like kind of rubric or something, you know, like a structured decision making process. let’s,
Jennifer (36:08)
Got me to expand on that. ⁓ Structure decision. Yes.
So I’ll start with boundaries and something I do a lot when I coach parents is, you know, how.
strong are you going to be able to be when your child is told that they’re going to treatment and hold that boundary and get them there safely. So I call this the safety quotient and anxiety quotient for the parent. So ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:42)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (36:45)
And I will trademark that eventually. no. But it seems to resonate. So for the parent is, how anxious are you going to be in the process of getting your child to treatment? OK, we’ve made the decision. You know where you’re going. You feel good about it. You’ve toured. You’ve talked with other parents. We’ve worked through my process. You get it. OK, firm. Still scared, but firm.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:49)
Nice.
Jennifer (37:12)
When you talk to your child, can you hold your own anxiety in abeyance so that you can hold a firm boundary that this sounds scary, Johnny, and this is a loving opportunity that we think and we know you need in order to feel better?
look at some of the examples of the behaviors and the challenges you’re having. We’ve tried this, we love you. Some parents can do that, hold their anxiety down, and then safely find a way to get their child to the treatment program that they’ve decided is the level of care and that they need. So that’s the boundaries is how strict and how firm can you be with your child? And some parents with some coaching can do that.
and can create a pathway forward. And it may not be the day before, it may be a week before. There are so many different ways I can coach parents on that transition planning. Some parents can do that. And Jeremy, I will tell you, is very few. And the reason is it’s the safety quotient. If you have a resistant teen, the question becomes, can I make the transition from home?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (38:20)
Mm-hmm. I could see that.
Jennifer (38:32)
to that safe space without really creating, and I don’t want to use the word trauma because trauma is in the eye of the beholder a little bit, but
can I do that safely so that I get my child to where they need to be and I’m not at risk and they’re not at risk. So that can look like anything from I have three other children in my home and if I tell my child they’re going somewhere and it creates a big ruckus in the house and then they decide that they’re going to lock their door and
you know, we won’t know what they’re doing in their home, in their room, or, you know, something where the parent feels like I’m not going to be able to be in a safe environment myself, or I’m not going to be able to take my very moody, depressed, dysregulated, awkward teenager and tell them they’re going somewhere because I’m not going to get them through TSA. If I drive, if I get to a gas station, are they going to get
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (39:41)
out of the car and not run away but just refuse to get back in. Like I’m not going to drag him in the car. So anxiety quotient, safety quotient sometimes goes together and I help parents kind of think through that. Okay. So boundaries and then these particular situations that I know will arise.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:46)
Yeah.
Jennifer (40:08)
The third option is having support. ⁓ I like to call my professionals that I work with transition specialists. ⁓ In the field, they’re referred to as transports. I will just tell you personally, think thinking about transportation makes me think about eggs and chickens and refrigerators. And I’m working with people.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:18)
Okay. Okay.
Jennifer (40:35)
Again, I’ve coined all my own phrases. I’m working with people and children and young people who are very fragile. And I will tell you the professionals that help me.
create that pathway to a treatment program from home or from a hospital or from any kind of other treatment setting where maybe we’re moving them. They know how to do it with the most utmost care, compassion, ⁓ safety. ⁓ The ones I use are generally licensed and have a lot of training behind them. ⁓ And they know how to connect with a teenager. ⁓
They also know how to hold a boundary and to work with a child to get them to get in the car, agree to get on the plane and go to a program. I’ll give you an example. I have worked with a lot of single parents. Whether there’s another child in the home or not, that single parent says, I have no resources to be able to make this transition happen. I don’t have an uncle that I want to put in the middle of this. I don’t have a best friend.
that I want to put into the middle of this, even if they would be supportive, you’re asking somebody to get into the middle of a perhaps a pretty intense experience that they’re not set up to do. So I have, you know, if I have a single parent and even if it’s a very, I’ll say benign, sweet teenage daughter who, you know, maybe be a little, is a little aggressive at home, but let’s just say as a milder presentation.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (41:53)
Yes.
Yeah.
Jennifer (42:18)
That mom may say, you know what, I’m not going to be able to hold it together getting them there and I need some help. And so it doesn’t have to be the completely out of sync externally behavioral child that needs transition support. ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:35)
Gotcha.
Jennifer (42:36)
So that is where a lot of parents do have some resistance and maybe take a pause. And we just take it one step at a time. ⁓ I don’t tell people what to do. I consult and coach them. ⁓ And I think if you asked any of the parents within my practice, with the exception of a couple, they will say it was a very difficult decision, but the best decision. ⁓ And I will think,
There are very few exceptions where parents can rally and create that pathway forward to a program, especially from home. So hard to leave home, right? I mean, do you want to leave home? I don’t. Vacation, right? But ⁓ I don’t want to go live somewhere else that I know nothing about.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (43:18)
That’s fair. my gosh. No, never. No. Yeah. Yeah.
Of course, of course.
Jennifer (43:32)
So I’m
15 and I don’t feel good anyway. Why would I want to go?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (43:36)
Right,
right. How do you vet the programs? That is super interesting to me. You know, like how do you know what’s good, what’s not good? These are big decisions, big investments for people. ⁓ Yeah, I’m curious how you sort through everything that’s out there and make the recommendation.
Jennifer (43:52)
Yeah.
Yeah. One of my favorite parts of this job.
is the relationship development within a program. So I have two colleagues and between the three of us, we probably visit a hundred plus programs a year in person. And what that allows us to do is refer to people, not a program. So who is the clinical director? I get to talk with that person. I get to meet students who are at the program, sometimes have lunch with the kids and get to know them.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (44:09)
Wow. Okay.
Jennifer (44:27)
them. How did you get h you? What would you change is it helped? Um and kid I will just say and the to meet kids who don’t h have had a panel of Chil where six out of six said and it wasn’t helping and parents and they want to
the program put those six in front of us. ⁓ But.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:01)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (45:03)
That’s okay. That was one piece of my tour. So we tour, we probably spend two to three hours at each program, meeting the academic team, clinical team, residential team, experiential team, sometimes the chef. ⁓ If there’s a special therapy modality like neurofeedback, ⁓ some programs have equine therapy, some programs ⁓ have music.
therapy. ⁓ And so whatever their particular specialty or interest, we then also branch into what makes you different. ⁓ We take a look at what do the rooms look like. Now, I’ve been grateful and happy to be doing this a long time, about 10 years. I don’t need to see another dorm. However, sometimes I mean, really, how many how many bedrooms can I see? That being said,
I can walk into a residential space and initially have the, I send my child here or does it really gross me out? And if it grosses me out, I’m honestly, I tell the programs like, I can’t send a family to you until you change the carpet. Now that may be the most ridiculous request of an educational consultant to a program because is that clinically relevant? No.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:14)
Yeah.
Okay.
Jennifer (46:33)
But as a parent, I want my child in a place that I know someone’s taking care of, because that indicates they’re going to take care of my child.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (46:42)
Definitely.
Jennifer (46:42)
So down to the carpet, I’m going into a program to understand who you are, why you are, what you are, and how are you gonna present and support the clients that I put my name on when I send you a child to consider for your program. So that’s how we do it. And we go back and round back, we round back to, thank you, we round back to programs about every two years.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (47:05)
I love that.
Jennifer (47:12)
those attending conferences and having networking opportunities ⁓ provide us with the ability to continue to develop that relationship. And again, you have relationships with colleagues. I have relationships with colleagues and it’s that trust factor that allows me to feel comfortable and say, yes, I want you to go look at this. Yes, it may not smell the best because it’s a bunch of boys living in a house and they’re doing their best.
and they ask the boys to help clean. So just take it for what it’s worth. And so part of what I love about this job is going and seeing the places, developing the relationships and being able to come back and give the parents a very specific picture of what they should experience when they go there and also who they’re going to meet. Why is that important? And so for us, the most important thing when we come to work with a family is
we’ve been there and we’re gonna go back and we have relationships. I would tell anybody listening that there’s no licensing for what I do, there’s no training program, although I’ve actually developed a training program when I bring new people into my practice, but it’s specific for me. And so,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (48:34)
Great.
Jennifer (48:39)
A little bit of knowledge for your psychologists and people who are listening to the podcast is if you have a referral to somebody who is a therapeutic ed consultant, ask them do they tour? And if they don’t tour, I personally would not pay them any money because how do they know what the program’s really like? They don’t.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:04)
Mm-hmm. That’s very reasonable.
Jennifer (49:07)
Honestly,
they don’t. And it’s an investment to work with me. And just like you said, it’s a huge investment, financially, emotionally, spiritually, ⁓ time to make the decision and actually send your child to treatment program. So we’re really proud of the fact that we really get out there. We each travel about one week a month and just go out and meet with people.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:34)
Yeah, yeah, and you’re looking at programs around the country, I’m guessing. Yeah.
Jennifer (49:37)
all over the country. In fact, I’m headed, ⁓
you know, don’t cry for me, but I’m going to Costa Rica in March because there are four, there are four programs ⁓ in Costa Rica that we use ⁓ regularly and I haven’t been there in a couple years. So again, I’m going back. I have a couple students who are in a program, so I get to visit them. ⁓ And that’s true when I travel now, most of the time when I go visit a program, no matter where it is, ⁓ from Portland, Maine,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (49:44)
⁓
Very nice.
Jennifer (50:07)
to Hawaii, to a place like Costa Rica or Puerto Rico, ⁓ I get to visit with families whose children are there. And that’s really gratifying because if they don’t meet me beforehand, then they get a chance to meet me and I can take the feedback. Usually it’s positive, but you know.
Some kids think that it’s I’m the devil and this is all my fault. That’s okay. That’s all right. I can live with that. ⁓ But so, you know.
going and touring even internationally is a commitment we make. And I’ll tell you honestly, one of the reasons I haven’t been back to an international program is it takes a while to get there. Even though programs cost share with us, it’s an expensive place to go and it takes a lot of time away from my practice. So all of those factors put together are part of what we do for
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:05)
makes sense.
Jennifer (51:12)
our investment in you guys, in our clients. We invest so that you can invest in us. Kind of like what you do, right?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:20)
Nice. Thanks for talking through that.
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓
Jennifer (51:22)
You all do your
training, you have your mastermind groups, you do continuing education. And so when I refer to a psychologist, it’s because I know that they are going to provide me and my client with the kind of information that I will find useful. ⁓ And I rely upon, you know, credentials and ⁓ well-educated and also people who are out there doing the work regularly to help me with my clients.
and that comes from relationship as well.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (51:56)
Of course, of course. I’d love to talk more about the integration here with us, with psychologists and neuropsychologists. ⁓ And maybe we just go with a kind of a general question around, you know, what does good collaboration look like with an assessing clinician?
Jennifer (51:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, great.
Right.
So ⁓ I’ll start with the beginning to the end for me, and then we can maybe work backwards. When I look at a client and I think, you know, what this assessment’s old or it was a psycho-ed assessment for eligibility criteria for an IEP, which doesn’t always cover everything that most of my clients should be tested for, frankly. ⁓ And I think I need to reach out to a colleague
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:23)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (52:46)
It’s helpful if I can talk through the past testing and what I’m looking for. I’m not always sure. Again, like I’m not the psychological expert. I just bring a package of questions. So what’s helpful is when I can talk to the psychologist and at least point in the direction of why I need their help and then being open to my questions and saying that sounds relevant, that doesn’t sound relevant.
I can give you a great example from today. I’m working with a neuropsychologist. We had our debrief with the parents yesterday. We went through the testing. We talked about the diagnoses, what they mean, what they don’t mean, and what they might mean for me as I help them figure out a therapeutic boarding school.
One of the questions I asked was about doing a SASE, which I think you all know is for substance abuse, right? And it’s a screening tool and it’s, you there’s no real, you know, teenagers like, you diagnose addiction? ⁓ I don’t think that I’ve worked with more than maybe like one true addict or two that are teenagers. that’s not my superpower. But this girl did say when she first started working with me,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:00)
Yeah.
Jennifer (54:07)
I like my pot. I’m going to turn 18. I’m going to get my medical marijuana card. I’m not going to stop. It makes me feel good. And so this was one of the concerns going into treatment that we wanted to explore with her in terms of really does that help her and how would that get in her way, right? Like I’m not naive. Neither are my parents.
These days when kids are not in treatment, if they want to use substances, they will. So part of this is how do we find that ⁓ naked mind once they’re in treatment to help them understand that this is probably not their pathway. So anyway, fast forward, we did amazing job testing. love this neuropsychologist and he and I were debriefing separately this morning and I said, you know, I’m just curious. There wasn’t this, this measure.
that you did and he said, you know what, great question. We knew she had this issue. It’s a screening tool. I didn’t really need it in order to understand what she presented with and how to talk about it with the parents. And he said, you know, I can do it, but I don’t think it would add to the substantive report. And so that’s why I didn’t do it. And he’s an addiction specialist. Like one of his subspecialties is treating and testing kids for addiction.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:23)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (55:31)
And so I really appreciated that because I’m not the expert. I’ve had other neuropsychologists do sassies and for him and I to be able to dialogue about what that meant to him and why not was hugely helpful. ⁓
Every time I have a dialogue with a psychologist, I learn something. So that was a really big opportunity for me to learn and also for my client where he saw the emphasis needed to be on treatment goals. So when I refer, it’s really helpful for me to have that open dialogue about what am I looking for? What history am I seeing in the client? And the openness to read old testing. ⁓ I have an online application. Maybe that’s helpful about the family system.
And then…
Do the testing. And actually, had another neuropsychologist call me and say, hey, I am not sure if this is ASD1 or 2 or 1 with certain repetitive or social pragmatic challenges. ⁓ I’m on the cusp. How do you think parents will take this? Now, they’re going to put in what they believe to be the truth. They’re not asking me permission. They’re asking me how do
I broach this or how can I discuss this with a family if this is where I come down? They also will ask me how is this going to affect your placement process because that can differentiate a school or a placement that I’m looking for. And so they may give me the heads up that, this is coming. I want you to know and I want to talk it through with you because this is how it’s going to show in this particular child, right? That doesn’t mean that everybody with a more developmentally
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (57:01)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (57:21)
delayed ASD diagnosis.
is similar to everybody else, right? We know that. But how does it show up in this child and in what respect? So that was a mid-testing discussion I had just about what they’re noticing and how this may affect my work with the family and how to also be prepared to talk to the parents about what this means in my experience. And I also have a son on the spectrum. Not that that’s, you know,
subspecialty, which it isn’t, but I get it, is also part of my coaching. And then I would say on the back end, Jeremy, and then I’ll be quiet, is working through the testing when it sits over and being able to talk it through with me and with the parents is absolutely fundamental because the reason I’m getting testing is for the parents to understand and for programs to understand. So all of the psychologists I work with offer up their time to talk with a program to really
describe what it was like when they were testing rather than just the black and white piece of paper. actually neuropsychologists are fundamental and foundational to what I do as a therapeutic ed consultant. I almost couldn’t do my work without you guys.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (58:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sure, sure. How would you recommend, you know, I’m sure there are listeners out there who are thinking, oh my gosh, like this sounds great. I would love to get involved in this kind of work. Do you have any recommendations for those of us who might want to add this to our practice portfolio?
Jennifer (59:01)
Being an educational consultant? ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (59:03)
Well, no, just being
a psychologist who works with Ed consultants and, you know, is there a way to kind of make connections with y’all to sort of get to be known for this kind of thing?
Jennifer (59:12)
⁓
⁓ okay, so not switching into a new career and adding a therapeutic consultancy to your, not to your big practice. ⁓ so what I would say is those two resources that I mentioned, ⁓ we welcome, I don’t wanna call it a cold email, but a warm email of, hey, I’d like to introduce you to my practice. ⁓ Alternatively, I do that ⁓ when I meet a new psychologist, whether it’s locally here or
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (59:19)
⁓ Maybe not yet.
Jennifer (59:44)
Say I get a referral from Texas and there’s a Texas psychologist. I don’t know. I will usually reach out and say hey I’m just starting to work with your family This is what I do if you don’t know if there are opportunities for us to work together in the future You know, please please remember me same with you guys. I would say reach out to us ⁓ Reach out to our organizations. I would be happy to talk to anybody and Even you know set up a panel with some of my colleagues and maybe have a bit of a roundtable with
or five of your psychologists who are interested in working with Ed consultants and we can have just ⁓ a short 45 minute Q &A. So there are a lot of ways to get involved. I would say I’m happy to start this dialogue, but I know so many of my colleagues. ⁓ I would say especially that the TCA organizations are going to be a lot easier to navigate. ⁓ Any of those folks will be very similarly situated to me where resources are the lifeblood
of what we can give back to families. So if I have more people to work with, the better I can be. And I know that’s true for my colleagues who do good work. Does that answer that? Yeah. Yeah. I’m all about relationship and knowing the person that you’re working with so that we can do a good job together.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:00:54)
Great, great. Definitely, definitely, yeah.
couldn’t agree more. feel like they’re so, so much of our work is relationship driven and this is just another aspect that falls under that.
Jennifer (1:01:13)
Yeah. Yeah, can I quickly
ask you, have you ever worked with a therapeutic consultant? Have you ever had that experience or that opportunity?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:01:23)
No, that’s why I’m so curious. This sounds really intriguing and I could see it being a lot of fun and pretty engaging. So there’s a personal element to this question as well as a, you know, of course, audience element.
Jennifer (1:01:31)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
absolutely. And I would say that my hope is most people don’t really need to call me. ⁓ And for those who do, it’s.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:01:42)
Mm.
Jennifer (1:01:48)
It’s a really important tool to have for parents. ⁓ I wouldn’t be where I was without the support that I got when my son was in residential treatment, and he would agree. He would agree. We’re still practicing the skills, and he’s 25.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:01:53)
Absolutely.
Jennifer (1:02:05)
So we learned a lot and it’s a lot of healing. It was great. It was a really hard thing, but I wouldn’t have gotten there without the support of the psychologists and professionals behind me to know what to do.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:02:20)
Well, that’s a good segue. think here’s we, as we start to close, I would love to hear, you know, if you had to come up with one or two sort of takeaways from all this for us, for psychologists, neuropsychologists, the assessors, ⁓ from your perspective, what would be helpful? What can we take away from this that will help us do better?
Jennifer (1:02:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
my goodness. I would say that collaboration piece when, you know, I’m making that trusting referral to.
Well, first of all, I always appreciate learning something because every time I learn something, I’m better at it. So I would just say, you know, that collaboration, those questions that come my way. What are you looking for? Is this something we should screen for? Do you feel like something’s been left out? You know, if I work with a child who’s 16 and their records back till 10 years old, you know, why are we doing this? So so those kinds of dialogues are practically what really helps me.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:03:18)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (1:03:22)
then, you know, really that end that I will tell you there’s so many parents I talked to and they say, well, here’s our old testing. I don’t really know what it means. I don’t really know what’s in there. And I’ll start going through it with them. And I said, did somebody actually talk to you about what this particular measure or this particular ⁓ index represents? Well, not no. I, you know, we got the we got it. We read it. So for me, what’s super practical in my practice and I would hope
maybe just all expanding what you guys do in a better way is to really understand this is sometimes like reading a foreign language. It is overwhelming. It’s sometimes a bunch of gobbledygook. The charts, the averages, the percentiles, the medians, the scaled scores. When you have that in a chart, I can just tell you the first time I read it, I was like, I have no idea what you guys are talking about. ⁓
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:04:03)
⁓ yeah.
Jennifer (1:04:22)
fairly well-educated and I have a good job and I’ve made it this far through life, I still have no idea what you’re talking about. So I would just say really dig in because the feedback I get is I don’t really know what’s in it. And so when I work with a psychologist, we really take a lot of time to make sure the parents get it. And if there’s a score that seems somewhat scary because maybe it’s below average and what does that mean for my child? Well, let’s nuance out.
what this one thing means in relationship, you know, you do a bunch of things and we’re looking at a whole person, not just one particular aspect. So I would say practically speaking, spending as much time with the family and honestly, if they’re a young adult and you can put it in a age appropriate fashion, even an even a teenager, sit down with them and tell them like, hey, this is what we found out that’s awesome about how you
and these are some of the ways that we think you’re challenged. Does this make sense? And you know what the good news is? I’ve got some ideas on how we can make this easier. ⁓ A lot of kids would really appreciate being part of the conversation.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:05:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I love that. love collaborating with the kiddos. That’s super important.
Jennifer (1:05:42)
Yeah, yeah, I’m not sure everybody
does that. So I would just say if you’re not, think about how that might work in your practice. So, yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:05:50)
Sure, Well, Jennifer,
thank you so much for this conversation. This world is so fascinating to me and it was great to hear your experience and how you approach the whole process.
Jennifer (1:05:55)
Gosh, you’re welcome.
Thank you. We’re very passionate and we are really grateful that the outcomes that we see for the most part are very positive. So appreciate what you do. And thank you for having this opportunity to talk with a whole new group of professionals about what we do and how we do it. ⁓ Demystify it a little bit, as I could say.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:06:23)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. If folks do want to learn more or connect with you, what’s the best way to find you and reach out?
Jennifer (1:06:31)
Sure. So we do have a website ⁓ and it’s jetedconsulting.com. So J-E-T, which is a plain, but it’s also my initials. ⁓ E-D, just happens to work out that way. ⁓ Jetedconsulting.com. And on there are actually other podcasts I’ve done, some writing that I’ve done, ⁓ a list of all the consultants in our practice, hopefully a good step-by-step
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:06:47)
Nice.
Jennifer (1:07:01)
how we work and then there’s also a contact me also in bright shiny letters is my phone number. So really the best ways for someone to call me or text me an email is fine. ⁓ I love a phone call. I love a cold call. So you know feel free to reach out to me that way. ⁓ And again the two other ⁓ associations also have our data on them and some of my colleagues but me specifically it’s jetedconsulting.com.
com.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:07:33)
Great, great. We’ll make sure to put that in the show notes for anybody who does want to reach out. Yeah, thanks again. It was great to connect. Yeah, I appreciate our conversation.
Jennifer (1:07:36)
OK. Thank you. ⁓ thank you very much
again for the opportunity, Jeremy. I hope you have a wonderful day. Thank you.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (1:07:46)
Yeah, likewise.
Click here to listen to the podcast instead.