Dr. Jeremy Sharp (00:00.568)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Testing Psychologist podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Jeremy Sharp, licensed psychologist, group practice owner and private practice coach.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (00:13.772)
Many of y’all know that I have been using TherapyNotes as our practice EHR for over 10 years now. I’ve looked at others and I just keep coming back to TherapyNotes because they do it all. If you’re interested in an EHR for your practice, you can get two free months of TherapyNotes by going to thetestingpsychologist.com slash therapy notes and enter the code testing.
This episode is brought to you by PAR. PAR offers the SPECTRA, Indices of Psychopathology, a hierarchical, dimensional look at adult psychopathology. SPECTRA is available for paper and pencil assessment or administration and scoring via PARiConnect. Learn more at PARiNC.com slash SPECTRA. That’s S-P-E-C-T-R-A.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:05.088)
Hey folks, welcome back to the testing psychologists. I’m glad to be here with you as always. And today’s guest is a special guest. So Dr. Lisa Lively is a long time friend and colleague of mine. Gosh, as we figured out on the podcast, we met back in 2010 and have known Lisa and her husband ever since. And yeah, she’s a fantastic person and wonderful psychologist. Our episode today is about Lisa’s journey from
feeling burned out in her job at the VA to creating a creative side hustle, building or making, creating coloring books for adults and selling them on Amazon. So we get into every aspect of that journey. We talk about just, know, burnout as a catalyst for creativity and how that comes into play for folks. We talk about the step-by-step process of
researching and designing and publishing a coloring book. We talk about pros and cons of using AI in this type of work. She talks about her experience with Amazon, KDB, and other means of publishing, self-publishing coloring books. And of course, we dive into the marketing and how to get these books sold and reviewed. So there’s lots to learn about here.
Especially, you know, if you’re one of those people who has sort of daydreamed of doing a side hustle, especially in self-publishing, this is a great episode for you. There’s a lot of nuts and bolts, but we also talk about the emotional components of certainly burnout and how to navigate economic pressure, balance with creativity and those sorts of things. So as you will hear in the episode, this is a total personal endorsement. You know, I bought Lisa’s coloring books.
when I first heard that she was doing them and have them in our waiting area. People love them. So especially if you’re seeing kids, you know, this is a great addition, I think, to a waiting room to give an activity for folks to engage in while they are waiting for testing or other appointments. So a little bit about Lisa, we’ll do the the formal credentials here as well. Lisa got a PhD in counseling psychology from Auburn University. She has worked in university counseling centers. She has worked in
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (03:27.982)
Department of Veterans Affairs. She now has a private practice as well. And she lives in the South in Tennessee with her family, where she is, as she says, navigating the current political nightmare one coloring book at a time, which I can totally get behind. So yes, please enjoy this conversation with Dr. Lively. I really enjoyed it. It’s always nice to talk to a friend and I think you’ll enjoy it as well. Given that we’re in mid July here,
we are promoting and recruiting for the Testing Psychologist Mastermind groups. I’ve got cohorts starting the first week of August for every stage of practice development. So if you’re interested in some group consulting slash coaching and accountability and you want to connect with other practice owners for support, this could be the place for you. You can get more info at the testingpsychologist.com slash consulting and book a pre-group call to see if it’s a good fit. All right folks, let’s…
Go to my conversation with Dr. Lisa Lively.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:39.832)
Hey, Lisa, welcome to the podcast. I’m very glad to have you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, for many reasons, right? So the audience doesn’t know, but we go way back, I think. I was trying to remember when were you at CSU?
Hi, thanks for having me.
Dr. Lisa Lively (04:54.638)
- So that was when my internship started at CSU.
Yeah, yeah, which is wild. So yeah, my wife, you worked with my wife there and we kind of met through her and I got to be good friends with her husband and you know, so it’s been a while. So I’m really glad to reconnect with you and have this conversation. And then of course, there’s the totally compelling, you know, business side of this where you have
started like a legit side hustle as a psychologist. And I think a lot of folks maybe daydream about that, but find it hard to put into practice and make it come alive. But you’ve done that and that’s really interesting. And I think a lot of people will like to hear about that. So again, just a long way to say thanks for being here and it’s really good to see you.
Yeah, it’s good to see you as well. It’s been good to be here. So thank you.
Yeah, of course. So I’ll start with a question that I always start with, is why is this important? Like of all the things you could spend your time and energy doing in this life that we have. Why, why this?
Dr. Lisa Lively (06:02.22)
Yeah, think for me, some of it, that’s a many levels of answer to this question, but the biggest thing I think for me as a psychologist, we are always very cognitive, very much in our heads, very all about the words, all about the thinking things out, all about the logic. And so for me to have some kind of artistic element, some kind of creative element in my life is really important just for balance. And I think coloring is a nice way for
for me to do that because I can’t draw. So it’s like an outlet to have some art stuff happening and some creativity. And then of course, creating them is another level of that. But that’s always just been something for me that’s a nice little creative outlet in a way to kind of be mindful and present in the moment and just decompress. So I think that that’s, you know, I wanted to do something that was both.
interesting for me and helpful in terms of balancing myself and also something that I’d found helpful for others. So other clients that I’d worked with who liked to color, that was something that they seemed to find some benefit from. So I wanted to kind of foster that a bit too.
Yeah, yeah, I feel like coloring is having a bit of a moment over the last five years or so I don’t know if that’s just perception or it’s just social media’s got it in my face more but I don’t know do you would you agree with that?
I definitely, yeah, no, it’s definitely the case. if you, know, and all my research that I’ve done on Amazon, particularly on their publishing platform, but in general, you see, you know, just like self-publishing of coloring books in particular, just creep up, up, up, up, up, up, you know, as people are interested. And I think, I think there are probably lots of other folks like myself who want to have some art outlet, but aren’t particularly good at just, you know, grabbing a canvas and going for it. And so this is a little.
Dr. Lisa Lively (07:56.162)
baby step way into it.
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I mean, I personally enjoy coloring as well. And I totally identify with that, you know, identity of liking art, but not necessarily being a good, you know, artist. I can’t really draw. I don’t really know how to paint or do pottery or anything, you know, like I don’t really have any structure, but coloring is feels very easy, but also very rewarding.
Yep, absolutely. And you do get some, you you’ve got the basic template, but then you can make it look a thousand different ways. And that’s one of the fun things about seeing stuff with social media people posting. There are lots of groups where folks are posting their work where they’ve colored and it looks vastly different from person to person. And some of it’s really simplistic and some of it is very fancy and layered and has a lot of skill involved. So I think, I think folks are, you know, just sort of finding it a nice.
simple outlet as well.
Yeah, yeah, I love them. I’ll say this a million times, I think probably during this interview, but a big part of me reaching out to you was just that the, so first, you know, I saw that you put this coloring book series out, right? And on social media and we know each other and everything. So I was like, that’s really cool. I’m going to get some coloring books from Lisa, you know? So we put them in our waiting room with some like decent, you know, pretty nice markers and people love these things, like love them. And
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (09:20.482)
The kids use them before their appointments or at lunchtime, and then parents will just hang out and color in the coloring books. They just exist in our waiting room now. That’s when I was like, yeah, there are many layers to this endeavor that could be helpful for those of us in private practice.
Yeah, definitely. That’s really fun to hear. I love that. I’ve had in my mind a hope that there would be some office somewhere doing exactly that. So it’s nice to know you’re doing that.
For sure, for sure. So maybe take me back, I think, I mean, I’m interested, but I think others might be interested just in the origin story of all of this and what, I guess how, I’m very curious about how you went from idea to implementation. And there’s lots of layers there, but maybe let’s go to the beginning, you know, when you started to think this might be a thing I could do.
Yeah, so I think, you know, I was, was working at the VA at the time and for several years and I’d just been kind of burned out and feeling like I needed to do something different. And like I said, wanted to embrace some creativity. And so started just doing some research. I also liked to write. And so was looking into publishing and just kind of generally, what does that entail? And knowing that it’s so easy for folks to, I mean easy, but you know, for folks to self publish these days.
research on what that entails and kind of what’s out there. And, you know, I’d always thought about children’s books. You know, those were kind of some of the ideas that I had, but I, again, with the drawing, it’s complicated and I didn’t, I don’t know, I didn’t have a great idea. So in my research, I came across, you know, folks that were doing a lot of adult coloring books and I had several adult coloring books and it occurred to me that that’s, you know, something that I love. That would be a great place to start. You know, that was kind of
Dr. Lisa Lively (11:10.54)
the original idea, I think how it kind of took the next step was just having, just doing a ton of research, right? I mean, that’s what we do. That’s what we’ve been trained to do. That’s what we do. So just a ton of research on what coloring books are out there. What are the different programs that folks use to publish? What does it look like in terms of like what kind of companies publish, know, big, small, all that, even just down to sort of what coloring books.
formats were popular, what styles were popular. And then I had an idea for my first book, which is Grumpy Friends, which is probably my favorite. Because it was my first. And I thought, you know, OK, I wanted to get the mental health background. And that’s important to me. And the mindfulness, self-care elements, all that’s important. And I also love animals and wanted to do something about something cute, you know, that’s fun and cute with animals. And I just imagined, I don’t know, these just
animals being really grumpy and just like harrumping, going through their day, doing all the things that they’re supposed to do, that their therapist have told them to do, that they know they need to do, and not liking any of it, but doing it anyway. Because I feel like both for myself and also for clients, it’s a lot of just do it anyway, right? You feel like crap, let’s just, I know, I hear you, let’s do it anyway. And just kind of pushing through and doing it. So all of the images are that different.
animals doing things that are considered healthy, self-care, good mental health stuff, and they are all grumpy in the process. So that was kind of where the idea came from for me. And then it was just a rabbit hole of research. And then the next step for me was just checking out some of the software, some of the apps, some of the programs.
Yeah, which I think we’ll get into. I definitely want to talk logistics. I’m a concrete person, but I’m going to, I want to go back and just maybe highlight. don’t know if I want to go super deep on the philosophy of coloring books necessarily, but I love, mean, there is something like really nice about the title, even the title grumpy friends. It’s like, you can hold two things that are kind of.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (13:22.55)
opposed to one another at the same time. like, yeah, you just like go through your life and you’re doing the things that you’re supposed to do. But you can be a little grumpy while it’s happening and that you don’t have to like love every moment. And I don’t know, there’s something like powerful in that simplicity, I think.
Yeah, I agree. I love that. And my kids, you know, I have two 10 year olds. And so that’s one of the things I realized a lot with them as they were growing up. So I would get really overstimulated with their noise and energy. Cause I’m just a very chill, quiet person. you know, they’re not kids aren’t and mine really aren’t. They’re very boisterous and have ton of energy and they’re like their dad. So I would just get super
just overstimulated with the noise and the climbing on me and the things coming at my face, the toys and everything. And so for some reason, coloring was one of the few things that I was like, okay, let’s color. And even from the time that they were too little to really do color in the line stuff where it was just crayons or whatever on paper, it was just something that we could do together and they would calm down and I could calm down and we could all be in the same space doing something without engaging on a really
high draining kind of level. So yeah, I think that that was always in my mind too, as far as just a time where it’s been helpful.
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it’s really hard to find things to do with your kids, I think, for a lot of people, like where you can mutually be regulated and having a good time. Yeah, it’s pretty tough. So I hear that. There was a component that you mentioned just in this process that we might detour just for a second. But I mean, you said that you were kind of burned out at the VA and I think that’s…
Dr. Lisa Lively (15:07.374)
Yes.
I think that’s an experience that a lot of people can identify with, whether it’s the VA or private practice or university or hospital, whatever it may be. Like we get burned out, right? Can you articulate somehow the way that you sort of recognize that it was time to do something about that? Because I think this is a thing that we talk about a lot. Burnout’s a thing we talk about a lot. And I also don’t know that a lot of people take action around it or actively.
try to do anything about it besides like sleep more or exercise or whatever, know, like the thing self-care quote unquote. Right. Yeah. I’m curious about that personal process for you if you can share anything about.
Sure, sure. I so I won’t, won’t just sort of keeping the VA out of it. think that’s a special kind of, you know, I think in every sort of niche that we work in, there’s a special drain that comes with it, right? So whether it’s working with kids, working with veterans, working with folks who have serious mental illness, whatever, I think private practice, dealing with the business element, there’s always some, you know, special element of drain that goes with that particular area. For me, it was just, I think,
working with so many people just consistently. I tried outpatient and that was, we just had a pretty high expectation of how many folks to see a day. And then I also did inpatient and then that was some frustration around seeing the same folks coming back through and the system being so flawed and feeling really helpless about all of that. So for me, think recognizing it was just a matter of really struggling to go to work.
Dr. Lisa Lively (16:50.156)
really struggling to have any kind of energy around the job anymore. It’s just very much like just autopilot, just do what I have to do. And that feels terrible for me. not, I mean, I feel terrible for everybody, but I’m one of those people I could never do a repetitive thing. It’s just, it breaks my brain. So just feeling like I was in that, this is the rest of my life, get up, go to work, come home.
spend an hour with the kids, go to bed, you know, just not feeling like that was working for me. So I think for me, just noticing my own mental health not doing well. So just feeling down more, feeling unfulfilled, exhausted. That was kind of the red flags for me. And also just kind of having that compassion burnout a bit where just like I care, but also I don’t know that I can really even help.
You know, just sort of feeling this, like, I want to help and I don’t even know if I can anymore. So I just, you know, I think also with just a side note, I won’t go down the political rabbit hole, but just this year, right? You know, just things that feels hard for a lot of us. think just feeling like, you know, the country is not, not in a great spot right now. And then feeling like there’s not a lot of control there and trying to figure out what you can do and working in a…
a pretty conservative place is a extra little layer of that for me because I live in the South. I it’s an extra piece that I just get overwhelmed with sometimes. So anyway, I did some self-care stuff. That’s always kind of an ongoing challenge of taking care of myself, but I just felt like I needed to do, I just needed to create something. And I was reading this
Mary Oliver book and there was a quote in it where, I don’t know the quote exactly, I can look it up, but it was basically like people who have a drive or an urge to be creative and that don’t fulfill that are some of the most unhappy folks. That’s the Lisa Lively version of the beautiful Mary Oliver quote, but it’s basically like if you have this urge and you’re not doing it, it’s a piece of you that’s missing and you really need to tend to that and there’s no amount of.
Dr. Lisa Lively (19:13.09)
you know, sleeping while they’re walking, that’s going to satisfy that need. It’s just something in and of itself. Yeah. So that was kind of, yeah, a sign for me.
Thanks.
Yeah. So then this might be the first step into the logistics of all of this, but I’m curious, you know, when the times I think that I felt like burned out or kind of exhausted with, with work and life and all those things, there’s that catch 22 of like, Hey, I know that there are things that, uh, should, that would probably make me feel more fulfilled and like joyful. Um, and
I’m really exhausted and I can’t figure out how to actually do those things. So how did you kind of step into this creative process and like make time for it? Was it just a matter of like you were just excited by something new or yeah, I’m curious, you know, any insight into that whole part of the process?
Yeah, yeah, that is a I think a really big barrier for most of us I was excited and so that was I think energizing in a way So kind of created some energy for me to use but I was also not Staying up too late not getting enough sleep because I was doing more than one thing, you know doing multiple things on multiple fronts Oh, you know, I think it is when you are
Dr. Lisa Lively (20:36.862)
full-time job, it’s going to be a slower process than folks who are, this is their gig and they’re doing it or they’re doing it part-time. So I kind of creeped into it probably in sacrificing some sleep and sacrificing some family time, but it was necessary at the time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, let’s let’s talk logistics a little bit. Lots of ideas are great ideas, but then making them happen is really tough. So can you think back? Maybe actually, maybe we zoom out. Can you give me like a big picture overview of just kind of major steps in this process to bring something like this to life? And then we can dive in a little deeper to each of those steps.
Yeah, I think the first piece is having some kind of an idea, right? Just some idea. And if that means you look through what’s out there and it sparks an idea or something that’s always been in the back of your mind or whatever. Kind of having that and I don’t think it has to be perfected by any degree, but just something that’s interesting to you. And for me, animals is always gonna kind of be the starting point for that.
You know, having an idea, I think the research part is really, really important because as you said, only books, just for example, but also publishing in general, it’s popular. That’s pretty saturated kind of market across the board. And so doing research on what exactly is selling, what exactly is working, what is not working. So you kind of figure out what to do, what not to do. And then there’s just sort of the, the creating piece. So figuring out some software that you like.
There are several different options. went with a simple on a cam because it was just like the most user friendly, simple one that I could get started with. But, you know, up to Adobe, which is obviously more fancy and complex. Understanding like the parameters of what it needs to be. So what are the margin sizes? What size do want the book to be? Some of those basics. And then putting it together, whether that’s drawing or licensing artwork.
Dr. Lisa Lively (22:43.15)
from other folks or pieces of AI or however it is that you do it. Editing a lot that, you you wouldn’t think so, but I spent a lot of time editing just little details. also, you know, a detailed person, but just getting everything lined up just right and making sure there’s no overlap here in the fonts and everything just detailed. So a lot of editing, you know, doing the cover piece, which is a little different than the inside and that it’s.
color, not black and white. It’s a little more complex in the format, the layout for covers are different from the insides. And then, you know, figuring out what platform you want to go with. So do you want to do Amazon? Obviously they have the market share, but there are tons of other smaller companies and, you know, there are some ethical concerns with Amazon. They’re not perfect, but I, you know, just I did a lot of research on different companies and what
What do they charge to print? What’s the shipping? Is it print on demand? Do I want to have inventory? You know, kind of making some of those decisions for yourself. And then marketing. So I think once you get it going, you can do some of the marketing beforehand and at least think it through. But a lot of it happens, you know, after you get the book out, but it has to happen fast because one thing I’ve learned, if you do go through Amazon is they have about a month window where they are generous with their placing you on.
you know, higher up on the search lists and whatnot. And after that time, if you don’t have enough reviews or sales or whatever, you just kind of get, you know, kind of bumped on down the line. Yeah, exactly. And so you, the push has to be like ready for as soon as you release it, which I did not really do the first time around. didn’t quite grasp that. So I had to rectify that later, which you can. Figuring out.
buried.
Dr. Lisa Lively (24:28.876)
The marketing has by far been the hardest part for me. So it’s many steps, whether it’s ads, social media, getting the reviews, what you want the sales page to actually look like, how much do you want to put yourself out there, all of that. So that’s to me been the most complicated part, but I think that’s probably a personality element. Some people might love it. But yeah, those are the overview, big picture.
You got to, got to. Okay, so yeah, let’s go back and dissect those a little bit. So the research phases is interesting to me. I’m just curious where you were doing this research. Like where are these statistics around, know, self-publishing, coloring books versus, I don’t even know, know, versus, you know, mandalas versus animal pictures, you know, like, how are you doing this research and what did you even know what to look for?
Yes, so I started with YouTube because don’t we all? It’s kind of the big hub of all the things. And so I started there and just watched a bazillion videos of people who had published, are publishing things that different advice, different things took notes. Because again, that’s what we do. Made a lot of lists of different things, but there are several programs. The one that I use is called Bookbeam.
And there are several programs though that you can download that will give you access to all of that data. So give you access to what’s selling the all the way from specifically ranking books, one to a trillion, right? All the way down to which keywords are most commonly searched and which, you know, if you can even search for self-published books with under a hundred reviews, you know, what’s popular there.
So you can get really specific. But that’s just the one that I went with. There are several that are recommended, but that one was, again, when I checked it out, I was just looking for user-friendly and it was very user-friendly. And the downside, will say about a lot of this is financially, I’ll just throw this out there, it does kind of add up because as you’re buying, whether it’s licensing artwork, if you’re not a great drawing person or subscriptions to things like the Canva,
Dr. Lisa Lively (26:39.854)
book being yada yada ads, yada yada. So all of that stuff does kind of add up. that research, you know, definitely don’t skip that part because that I think makes a huge difference.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. That’s great. I mean, of course there’s software for it, but I had no idea. Yeah, that’s great.
There’s software, there’s stuff for everything. Anything you can think of. Yes.
Yes, gotcha. Okay, so you did a ton of research and was it a matter of, was it just sort of serendipity that your sort of love of animals and emotional stuff was popular or did you say like, you know, I’m going to do what I want to do and it may not be the most popular thing. Let’s take a break to hear from a featured partner. Y’all know that I love therapy notes, but I am not the only one.
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Dr. Lisa Lively (29:35.182)
So a little bit of both. I knew that I wanted to do animals and I had this grumpy idea, know, cute grumpy friends idea. And I wanted to see what was out there that was similar. So kind of searched for things that were similar. There wasn’t really anything that was exactly like where I was coming from. Kind of this divide in adult coloring books. There’s the cute ones. There’s the more complex, really artsy ones like the mandalas, as you mentioned, or some of the ones that
are really fancy that people do with colored pencils that look amazing, that are basically faces and just very elaborate. And then there’s the kind of like the R-rated adult ones where people are saying, you know, just a lot of sassy things where they’re just, you know, I saw one that was called F Trump and just for fun, you know, that’s out there, right? So there’s like a whole, there’s a coloring book with that. So there’s just a whole, you know, that’s kind of its own little sub genre.
So then I looked at the cute ones, because I felt like, you know, kind of narrowing it down. And then a lot of them have these really cute animals. I was like, okay, that’s perfect. But I didn’t see any that had the same kind of, the exact kind of theme. But I knew sort of the bracket that was popular. So I tried to put my theme into the bracket. And so I sort of took the, with the grumpy cute animals and a variety of mental health, self-care behaviors and tried to find
like a way to make it really cute and have the big bold lines that are popular and kind of the simple, not complicated formats.
Nice, nice, yeah. Thanks for walking through that process. Yeah, I think that, I don’t know, for me personally, that would be really, really tough. Just like, how do I decide on an idea? What is gonna work? That just seems really, you know, it’s the whole like analysis paralysis situation. Playmaking the decision. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Lisa Lively (31:25.122)
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah, and you, you know, the thing that I got from some of the research on YouTube, you know, seeing a lot of folks who’ve been doing self-publishing for a while is just the ratio of what you put out versus what takes, you know, what gets picked up is it’s going to be, it’s going to be big. So you just have to know, I’m going to have to do, I’m going to kiss a lot of frogs, right? I’m going to do a lot and it’s not going to work and it’s going to be flopped. I mean, I have several out there and I have a couple that
are doing pretty well. And then I have a couple that is like crickets, nobody even nothing. So it’s, you know, it’s definitely, it’s a fragile equation to kind of get the exact right thing that people are going to want at the right time and market it in the right way and have it show up so that people can even see it at all to decide if they want it. So there’s a lot of, you know, a lot of hit or miss, I think that that shakes out too.
Yeah, yeah. It makes me think of the closest that I’ve come to experiencing anything like this is, I don’t know, a few years ago, a couple of friends and I were bored one weekend and we made some songs in GarageBand and put them on Spotify, right? And nobody listened to any of them, but there was one song that for whatever reason got tens of thousands of, tens of thousands, I mean, I say it like that’s a lot, but you know, compared to the rest, were like 17, you know? Yeah, yeah.
I was like, what was it about this particular song? Like who heard it? Where did it go in terms of playlists and so forth? You know, I can never figure out the equation, it feels similar.
Dr. Lisa Lively (33:06.318)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So super interesting how people consume content.
Yeah, and I do think the marketing element ends up being a big factor for that because there is so much of it that’s on social media, whether it’s TikTok or Instagram in particular, I think a lot of coloring stuff. And so if it gets seen by the right handful of people and takes off, you know, or if someone who is, you know, has 9,000 followers that watch them, just watch them color, if they pick your stuff to color.
then those people are seeing all of that. it’s just a lot of it, think, boils down to exposure. But then there also is an equation of what speaks to people. I think there’s a little bit of that that’s hard to touch, too.
Sure. Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about the creative process. You mentioned Canva as presumably your creative. You’ve also talked about licensing art versus making it yourself. How did you tackle that whole process? I mean, first question, did you do the drawings?
Dr. Lisa Lively (34:01.368)
software.
Dr. Lisa Lively (34:11.118)
No. I would love to say that I did the drawings. If I did, would be so happy. No, I’m not a drawer. I don’t do that. So with the digital stuff with Canva, and that’s just one platform, like I said, there’s lots of different ones, but you have a few different options. mean, basically your options are either you draw it yourself, hand draw it, do it digitally, hand draw it.
You put it together digitally, completely. You license artwork, so you work with an artist or a group of artists to kind of buy access to their work. And then there’s the AI world, which is controversial in some regards, too. So I’ve done, I haven’t done any of the drawing myself. I’ve done AI and I’ve done licensing artwork. So I’ve done both of those things, just trying to kind of feel out what works. So there are advantages to both if you
and disadvantages to both if you kind of sit aside the, do you feel about AI piece? Because that’s a whole other conversation. But for me, so with the grumpy friends, for example, I would say I want an image of a grumpy spider folding laundry in a basement that’s also cute and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you give a very detailed description. So your idea gets in there, but a lot of times the image is not what you want or the grumpy spider
is too grumpy, is scary grumpy or angry spider. You we got a lot of people with arachnophobia running around. don’t, you know, you have to refine it. And then even when you get the image, so that’s what I figured out with the editing part is a lot of times the image is not fantastic. So pieces of the image will be okay, but then there’ll be lots of things that you have to tweak and erase and extend and make look right, right?
make look the way that you want it to do. So then you’re doing a lot of just digital editing and that’s where those programs come in handy, I think, to really be savvy with those, which is a pretty good learning curve if you’re not already savvy. then the other option… go ahead. I’m sorry.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (36:15.918)
to generate those images are you as far as the AI approach were you working like in mid journey or something else did you have a preferred sort of AI platform.
Yeah, so there was a coloring feature with chat GPT specifically that I used in as a, I don’t know, subscriber. I don’t know, whatever you say, have a paid chat GPT, whatever, because otherwise you’re going to get like one image every week or something ridiculous. It’s really slow. Yeah. So you have to, again, that’s another thing you have to kind of pay for it. But I used that and then I would upload that into Canva and then do all of the tweaking and editing and.
so slow.
Dr. Lisa Lively (36:54.734)
putting it the way I wanted it to look. Yeah, so that’s one avenue. And then the other avenue that I’ve used personally is the licensing artwork. So individuals will say, if you are, like have a membership to my artwork, I don’t know, whatever they call it, my stuff, then you can use it.
for as long as you have the membership, you can make stuff with it, or you can buy the rights to use it indefinitely. And it’s not yours, you don’t own it, you can’t resell it. Like I made this, you know what I mean? But you can use it to create things with. So that’s the licensing piece. So I’ve done that as well. And that is nice in the sense that it’s, I think, higher quality. But again, it’s not always exactly what you want. Because if you have an idea, you can’t. Sometimes it’s difficult to translate that into, like, let me.
this is this person’s idea and I want it to be my idea. And so how do I make it the way I want it to be? And sometimes you just can’t do that with when you’re licensing artworks, you just have to take it as it is. So this is what their character looks like and I’m gonna use it or I’m not gonna use it. So that’s just one of the downsides. There’s still a ton of editing that goes in it because I don’t often use like a full picture from someone. I don’t usually like that. I am usually using it.
background from here and some characters from here and some elements from here. So that’s where the editing slash creating kind of part comes in where you’re just putting it together the way you want.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotcha. At this point, would you say you have a preferred path to creation? you know, would you choose AI versus licensing or is it still kind of a mix of both?
Dr. Lisa Lively (38:38.744)
would try both if I were recommending things, I would say try both and see the difference because you kind of have to know, know, one makes you appreciate the other in different ways. So it’s just good to kind of know what’s out there. I mean, if you are someone who can obviously do the drawing yourself, that’s fantastic. Or if you have a partner, like you want to work with a partner on producing something, that’s great. I just didn’t have that as an option. I had to kind of get outside the box there a little bit.
Where’d you find the artists?
trying to remember, I think I just did a thousand Google searches for licensing artwork and looked at so many different people and this was an individual, his name’s Hugh, can’t think of his last name, I’m sorry. His site is called The Publisher’s Vault, so that’s what I usually go to is The Publisher’s Vault and you can get a subscription and then he uploads new images every month.
and you get sort of access to those, but then he sells a bunch of images too in a pack and you can buy those and that’s when you have the indefinite access. But there are tons of people. I know Fiverr is a site that a lot of people use. I had a really bad experience on Fiverr. I tried that a couple different times when I was looking for a cover. It was a nightmare and it was worse than just like really crappy AI. It was just, I don’t know what was going on with this particular individual, but I tried a couple different artists and I just didn’t like.
any of the stuff. So I just did it myself. When I like go to covers and stuff, just know I can’t do that.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (40:10.574)
That’s fair. Yeah, the folks I know who’ve used Fiverr for really anything, it seems like it falls into two camps. Like it’s either absolutely terrible or pretty good, you know, and there’s, but there’s really nothing in between.
Yeah, I think it’s just a matter of because it’s just a site for people to access each other So you have some really amazing people and you have some people who don’t know what they’re doing and you don’t have a lot of great ways to tell the difference You know, because I the person I went with had a ton of great reviews, but you know, it’s not always the thing
is the case. So then the next step you said is the publishing, right? The actually getting it on? Mm-hmm.
So yeah, once you’ve got the book itself, all the files the way you want in a cover the way you want, then you just decide. I would recommend folks actually do the research and kind of decide the platform first before you go into the creating because a lot of different platforms have different tiny little tweaks to margins or little different errors or editing pieces that if you don’t get the right template, for example, like there’ll be a template for
Amazon KDP has a template for their covers and you use that template and if you have something that’s not just right in that, know, it’s gonna, they’ll reject the book. And Barnes & Noble, they have a totally different set of parameters. So like if I’ve published in different spots, I’ve had to sort of redo a good amount of the formatting of the book. So it’s good to know that ahead of time and at least the one that you know you want to go with, maybe start with there.
Dr. Lisa Lively (41:46.958)
parameters and then you can you can tweak the others but yeah, so you just figure out what publisher you like I’d say you know the biggest question to decide is do you want to be somebody who has inventory and goes places with your books or tries to sell them from your own personal website or do you want to do the publishing on demand route and you know kind of leave some of that up to a third party
Yeah, yeah. And I don’t know if this is the right place to ask this question or if it’s even a relevant question, but where did you ever consider something like a Kickstarter or something like that? Does that come into play at all? I know some people who have done books on Kickstarter.
No, I didn’t consider that. No, that never crossed my mind. Never crossed my mind, but that seems like it might be good idea depending on, yeah, if you, especially if you a really clever idea, I could see that. Sure. Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:41.784)
Yeah, I’m sure there are a lot of factors. So then of those three, you said there’s the inventory, print on the band, and there was something.
Well, and then there’s kind of a mix between the two. So, for example, the print on demand is like Amazon KDP, right? So you upload your stuff, they have it stored, they say everything looks great, you have it advertised on their page. When people order it, they print it, they send it to the individuals. You don’t have to do any of that. And then you get a percentage of the sales price. It’s pretty small because they’re paying for…
basically everything. So that’s a much smaller way for royalties. Some people, you have, you know, if you want to buy the books in a large bulk at a publisher, sometimes you can get a good deal. I looked at other publishing on demand sites and they were pretty expensive too, as far as how much they charge for publishing. if they, whatever they charge means you have to kind of creep your book price up just a little bit to cover it. Just so you’re making, cause like, for example, on Amazon, I think I make like a dollar 20.
for every one that I sell. And they’re listed at 9.99. Yeah. Other.
And is that pretty typical? mean, as far as just like percentage of gross.
Dr. Lisa Lively (43:57.518)
It seems like it. You know, I looked at some other local kind of smaller printers, print companies, and Amazon for this particular size book, it’s $2.84 print. And then they take out for shipping and some like other things, not shipping for me, but they take out, you know, some other things from the money that you get. shipping was, mean, excuse me, printing was more like $5 for this size book with a lot of other print companies, but then they don’t
charge as much, but then you have to pay shipping to get your materials and you have to store it and you have to go somewhere and you have to spend your time sitting somewhere with the book. So it’s just a very different, just depends on what you want to do.
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, like what’s more valuable.
Yeah, I didn’t have the time, you know, to do that sort of thing. So that was not really an option for me. I do have, like I have a personal website that’s my private practice and I do have like a little shop feature that’s off of that. so you can order from that. And it’s like a dollar more because then I have to order it. Basically I order it from Amazon and I have like a stash that I keep.
and then I send it at whatever it just costs me to ship. And so then I usually end up making the same amount that I would from Amazon, but it’s just, I wanted to have an option for folks who really don’t like Amazon, because I’ve had some people say like, I really want to buy your book, but I won’t support Amazon. So I just wanted some alternative. there are different ways to do it.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (45:25.986)
And yeah, for folks who might be considering this, is it relatively easy to sign up and do the print on demand or the Amazon option?
Yeah, I think the signing up is definitely the easiest part. They make that easy. They want you to do that. I think getting it to their specifications, the formatting is a little tricky. But if you follow videos online, you can kind of have… I’m a visual person, so I like to see people do it. So I watch a lot of videos of seeing people tweak their material so that I kind of have it in my mind visually what to do. It’s not… I wouldn’t say any of it is particularly hard. It’s just, it’s time consuming.
because it’s a lot of little steps. You do have to invest a little money in some of the programs and things. And then, you know, I think the other hardest part is probably just the patience of when you put it out there. And then it’s like, is this gonna, you know, is this gonna go or did I just spend these, you know, days and hours for nothing really? But again, I try to think of it as like, you know, a ratio of you put a lot of stuff out there and some of it’s gonna stick.
Yeah, yeah. That might be a nice segue just to the marketing and how you actually promote these materials. You said this is the toughest part.
It is for me. It is for me. So you have to get reviews. That’s a really big thing on all the sites, but particularly on Amazon, think people just won’t buy it if there are reviews. that puts you in a pickle of when you’re first putting it out there, how do you get reviews if you’re just now having it available? So there are a few different things you can do. You can have copies that you order.
Dr. Lisa Lively (47:07.628)
before your release date. So you can get everything lined up and have everything ready, but then you don’t release the book for a little while and you can get your author copies. You can give those out to people, have them check them out and you know, and put reviews on. The tricky thing with Amazon though is if you don’t buy it from them, then it’s not what they call a verified review. So they still post it because it’s still a review, but it’s not, I mean, I don’t find that people really care, but that is a difference just to say it’s a difference. There are also sites where you can
participate in, I don’t even know what they call it. It’s kind of like a sites where publishers go, they have books, they need them reviewed. They put them out there. You review some, they review some. You’re not reviewing each other’s because that’s a big no-no. So it’s not like a tradesies. You review each other’s, but like I’ll review six books that I, let’s say in a month, I’ll review these six books. Well, then I’ve got six people on there.
random people who will give me reviews, right? So that’s just kind of one option. And then, you know, just once you have the reviews or even just in the process of getting them, social media is a thing, you know, so telling people that you know, you can have your own web page, Instagram, TikTok, what have you. I like to color pictures really to the best of my ability. And then I like to put those on coloring sites too. like.
sites that are for adults who color and they want to share their work and kind of get feedback. So I will do my own and put it out there and then say, this is from this book. So I’m not saying you should buy it, but if you like the picture, here’s where you can get it. And here’s what it can look like. Also time consuming. Because if you’re doing a really good job, it could take a while. Yeah, so those are the biggies that are less expensive. And then the more expensive, pricier elements are obviously the ads on Amazon.
don’t know much about Amazon ads. I do know a fair bit about Facebook and Google and those often. But what do Amazon ads look like?
Dr. Lisa Lively (49:09.906)
there, you can either do ads by the product or by the keywords. You can have, you know, people searching for coloring books, or you can have people searching for adult coloring books with fuzzy animals, you know, whatever. And you just, you basically pay per click, which is really hard to navigate. I just don’t have a background in this. So it’s been a lot of trial and error for me, like.
what’s working with some of those research sites. You you can look up what keywords are more popular and so that’s helpful. And you can look up what keywords are associated with books that actually sell. Because you don’t want just like random keywords. You want it to be ones that are associated with what people are really looking for and they actually buy something. So, you you just have to do some research and all of that goes into that. And so then you pay per click per keyword or per click per product.
So one of the product links might be someone goes to another coloring book and then mine is advertised at the bottom. So that would be kind of the product link. So a couple of different options and it’s hard to know which is better and I just kind of play around with it and see.
You said you’re doing a little bit on as far as posting your pictures to these websites and things like that. Are you doing social media at all?
Yeah, so most of the groups, the sites that I was talking about are Facebook groups specifically, the coloring book groups or Facebook groups. And then I also have a Facebook site, I’m just coloring for wellness and then also Instagram that I don’t do as much as I need to. Like I get on kicks where I will, but they say, you know, how often you need to post. just, it’s just, you know, it’s my growth age. I’ll say that. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (50:50.574)
Well, it’s…
Yes. Yeah, it’s definitely a double edged sword. That’s been my experience, at least with social media. Like I don’t just gravitate toward it naturally. And so to utilize it for business, it’s a little bit of a push, you know, or a set of
Exactly. I know it’s helpful and I know, you know, it reaches a lot of folks, but it’s just, I don’t do well with self-promotion in general, just to be honest. So I have to dig deep when I’m doing it, um, just from my own sort of psychology.
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. So out of all those things, have you found, there any rhyme or reason, like is anything more successful than anything else in terms of getting the word out and actually leading to?
I do, I mean, there is a definite correlation with the Amazon ads. If I, I’ve tried stopping doing them for a little bit and it’s just total crickets. Like nobody’s seeing my book. It’s just gone. But then it’s a ratio of trying to figure out how much do I spend versus how much am I making in my, cause I have had also months where I’ve spent more than I’m making on, you know, I’ve spent more on ads than I’m bringing in. So it’s a tricky balance to try to figure out.
Dr. Lisa Lively (52:02.466)
But without it, it does seem, I mean, there may be other people who doing it differently, but I can’t figure out how to do it without some element of that. And again, there are so many people on YouTube who have their set of ways of doing things down, excuse me, down to even walking you through the settings for the ads, like how to set your ads in a way. But I find, I’ve seen folks say to do it differently and I’ve tried some different ways. So I think, know, trial and error ends up just being part of the equation.
Yeah, that makes sense. mean, I would imagine that the way you describe it, it sounds similar to Google ads and or Facebook in a way. And both of those are kind of sciences unto themselves. I mean, there’s, you know, there’s their strategy and technique and expertise and, you know, it’s tough for like a normal person to just learn and implement. So kudos to you for spending the time and watching the videos.
giving it a try anyway. And they say, you know, folks who’ve been doing this for a while or who it’s their only main gig, they often outsource a lot of this stuff. So they’ll put it to the book together, but then they’ll outsource marketing. They’ll have somebody run that for them or maybe they’re, that’s which is what I would do, but maybe they’re not great at coming up with ideas. So then they’ll outsource that.
you know, if you have more money, then you can kind of outsource all those, but I don’t really have that to spare. So it was really more just so I was going to have to get my time. That’s what I’m going to have to pay with is my time. So.
Yeah, that’s what we do. Gotcha. So, trying to think what else, there’s so many threads to pull on, but this feels like a nice kind of overview, you know, without doing a whole conversation on the ethics of Amazon or self-publishing and what that looks like, you know. But this is, I feel like this is a really good overview. I’m curious, maybe as we start to wrap, just at this point in the process, and I know it’s still relatively new for you, any thoughts?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (54:02.134)
recommendations, guidance for folks who may be at the very beginning of the process, like things you would have done differently, things to think about.
Yeah, that’s a good question. Like I said earlier, think research makes a huge difference for this. So I’m glad that I did a lot and I even could have done more. The one thing I feel like I sort of hindsight and in later books have done differently is the having the reviews earlier in the launch. Because you can sort of publish it and it shows up and you got to know the clock’s ticking.
So having, you know, author copies and kind of having some of that tackled. Some of it you can’t because if you don’t have an Amazon link, you can’t send people anywhere. You know, so there’s a, you can only do so much of that, but you can gather the reviews and you can kind of get the word out. So that’s something that I probably would do a little differently is focus on that a bit more. But for me, the biggest takeaway is just if you feel like you want to make something, just make it. And maybe it sucks and.
maybe it flops and whatever, but the creative energy, the process that goes into it, I think is really important, regardless.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you at this stage feel like the creative thread has stayed strong and not gotten kind of subsumed under the economic, I don’t know, the economic pressure. Where are you at with all of
Dr. Lisa Lively (55:35.094)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a question too. I mean, I’m still, I’m still doing it. I’m still putting stuff out. I get the bill for like the Amazon ads at the end of the month. And I’m like, okay, I know I didn’t make that much from royalties. I might’ve made that much in sales, but not royalties, right? Not what I actually get to keep. So then that is a little bit like, should I stop doing this? But.
I still like it, so I figure as long as I like it and it’s not, and there is still some movement, some positive movement forward, then it’s okay. But it is a balance and it is something to think about for sure. But yeah, I still like the creative part. I feel like I didn’t do that, anything creative for a number of years and really just sort of missed a of myself. And so when I kind of was able to get back and doing that, both with this and with writing, it was just like, hi.
Remember you? So, you know, I think that that part will stay even if it’s not making any, even if it’s not really a side hustle because it’s not making any money.
Sure, sure, sure. I mean, that’s important though. That’s important. Ultimately, that’s what it’s about. Keeping that part of you alive and thriving. Yeah, I have a lot of admiration for you and the fact that you found a way to do that. Yeah, a lot of us, I think, want to, but don’t always know how.
Well, I’m happy to answer any questions. If folks have them down the line, they can let me know.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (57:02.664)
Well, yeah, I was going to ask if people have questions or just want to get the books or anything in that realm, how do they find you connect?
Yeah. So they can, I mean, I have a website, but that’s usually that’s more for professional stuff, but it’s lisaLively.org. If you’re interested in the books, you can go on Amazon and you can just type in LisaLively coloring and then they’ll all show up and you can kind of look at them. And then my email is dr. dr. LisaLively at gmail.com. So they can, any of those outlets.
Yeah, yeah, that sounds good. That sounds good. And I’ll do, yeah, one final plug. Like I said, these have been great additions to our waiting area. People love them. People ask about them. Where do I get them? So just, yeah, any private practitioners out there who need a little something for the waiting area, especially if you see kids, but adults have been pretty receptive and engaged as well. So it’s been really cool to be able to share. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this. It was great to talk to you. And again, just thanks for sharing your journey.
That’s fun. I’m glad to hear it.
Dr. Lisa Lively (58:03.822)
My pleasure. My pleasure. Good to see you.
All right, y’all, thank you so much for tuning into this episode. Always grateful to have you here. I hope that you take away some information that you can implement in your practice and in your life. Any resources that we mentioned during the episode will be listed in the show notes, so make sure to check those out. If you like what you hear on the podcast, I would be so grateful if you left a review on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re a practice owner or aspiring practice owner,
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Dr. Jeremy Sharp (59:29.624)
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