Dr. Jeremy Sharp (00:00.568)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Testing Psychologist podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Jeremy Sharp, licensed psychologist, practice owner and private practice coach.
Many of y’all know that I have been using TherapyNotes as our practice EHR for over 10 years now. I’ve looked at others and I just keep coming back to TherapyNotes because they do it all. If you’re interested in an EHR for your practice, you can get two free months of TherapyNotes by going to thetestingpsychologist.com slash therapy notes and enter the code testing. Thanks to PAR for supporting our podcast. The Brief 2A is now available to assess executive functioning in adult clients.
It features updated norms, new forms, and new reports. We’ve been using it in our practice and really like it. Learn more at parinc.com slash products slash b r i e f two a.
Hey folks, welcome back to the Testing Psychologist podcast. Glad to be here with you. And we’ve got a returning guest today who is always a lot of fun. Uriah Guilford is back to talk about AI and its uses both personally and professionally in the couple of businesses that he runs. So if you haven’t heard Uriah on the podcast before, he’s licensed therapist and a group practice owner.
He’s also the author of the productive practice book and the head nerd at productive therapist, which is a virtual assistant company that serves mental health clinicians in private practice. He’s a technology nerd, a minimalist travel packer and a rock drummer and just an incredibly engaging person. If you ever get to hang out with Uriah in person, you will see that and I would make a recommendation that you try to do that as soon as possible. He’s a great guy. All right. So
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:52.102)
We’re talking about AI today. This is a wide ranging conversation, I think. We touch on kind of the state of AI in mental health practices right now and how it can help business-wise. We talk about kind of separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and trying to figure out which AI tools are actually helpful for you versus just shiny objects. We talk about our favorite use cases of AI and we get into some of the philosophical questions around AI and
training and AI replacing us as clinicians and things like that. So there is a lot to take away from this episode as usual. And if you’re interested in AI, you’ll love this. If you are curious about AI, but don’t know where to start, probably also love it. And if you’re a total AI doomsayer, then I would encourage you to listen to it just as a means of expanding your way of thinking about this. So.
I hope that you enjoy this episode. As you can tell, Uriah is doing a lot of things. You can find him at theproductivetherapist.com where he’s got a lot of resources for practice owners. Speaking of practice owners, if you are a practice owner and you would like to join a mastermind group to get some accountability and group coaching as you scale your practice, mastermind groups are starting up again in, let’s see, four to six weeks.
So late July, early August is when the second cohort of the year will start for the testing psychologist mastermind groups. These are groups where you get coaching and support and homework on the tasks that you’re trying to do to build your practice. So you can get more info at the testingpsychologist.com slash consulting. And I’d love to talk with you and see if the group would be a good fit. All right, let’s get to my conversation with Uriah Guilford.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (04:01.55)
Uriah, hey, welcome back.
Hello, it’s good to be here again.
Yeah, always good to have you. Always good to have you. Yeah, we seem to these conversations that center around technology and efficiency and AI is a big part of that. So I am very curious to hear what you’ve been up to with AI and many other things.
Likes are coming advice. I have to ask you, this is my third time on your podcast. If I make it to five times, do I get a jacket?
I don’t know what the life stage of this podcast. I’ve had literally four people ask me that in the last like three months. I think what that tells me is that yes, there should be a jacket.
Uriah Guilford (04:41.208)
Yeah. Or at least like a testing psychologist shirt that you send out and then I’m like, you know, five timers club or three timers club, something like that.
For sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ll consult you on the design. That was shipped out, yes. So I know we’re gonna talk about AI, but I’m actually interested to hear before we totally dive into it. You’ve been doing a lot of traveling and conference hopping. Oh, I would just love to get your overview. Now these aren’t testing specific conferences, they are private practice conferences. would love to get like a quick, like…
Looking forward to it.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (05:13.774)
What the experience has been like, like what stands out, like some good ones, what have you enjoyed?
Yeah. So I created a resource list on my website. If people go to productivetherapist.com, there’s an option for events. And I don’t know you see this Jeremy, but I have events on there. Everyone that I could find and people would come in to me and tell me about events that are for therapists. These tend to be not clinical events per se, but more sort of business retreats, summits, and conferences. And there’s at least 30 to 35 events on there. So there are lot of options and some are, some are very specific like EMDR.
you know, focused or something else like that. And some are very specific to certain aspects, like how to run an intensive. then some of the ones that you and I’ve been to together are more group practice focused. So it’s kind of just about choose what you’re interested in. And, and there’s probably something out there for you. So I just got back from the group practice scaling summit, which is a newer one that was out in Chicago brought on by Brent Stutzman from Therisass.
and Nate from Navigator Bookkeeping. And that was a great event. Really enjoyed that one.
Great. Yeah, I’ve not heard of that one before.
Uriah Guilford (06:27.128)
This is only the second year, but they’re doing it again next year as well. It’s kind of, kind of nice because it’s a smaller event. a little bit more for lack of a better word, intimate, you know, so you actually get to know people and get to hang out with the same people in the room for all the talks versus like a bigger event, like meet you in Kentucky, which is amazing. But you’ve got like, you know, four breakout rooms, keynote stage and lots of people, maybe 150, 200 people or something like that. Sure. the cool thing is that there’s.
great resources, there’s great events, and you just have to pick what’s going to help you the most with your practice.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I love that you’ve aggregated them. I kind of forgot about that. Actually, that wasn’t like a purposeful setup for that quest for that resource, but yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it worked out. So yeah, well, I’ll make sure and put that in the show notes because it is really cool. I looked at that list every now and again, and there’s there is a lot of stuff on there. I was kind of surprised at how many private practice or businessy events are out there for us.
Well, I appreciate it.
Uriah Guilford (07:26.254)
The other one that I went to just recently was in Ireland. And this was put on by Patrick Cassell and it was his doubt yourself, do it anyway retreat in Ireland. And my wife and I went there for vacation and we were there for total of about two weeks. And then the last four or five days, we were with this group of therapists for a proper retreat where I really liked this, honestly. So we would have like a day of talks and working and sort of masterminding. And then we’d have a day of adventure where we’re like drinking hot Irish whiskey on the beach and listening to Irish bagpipes. And we’re going to.
the pub and fun things like that, sightseeing, and then back to another day of work and then another day of play. I think that’s a nice way to go, especially with the epidemic of therapist burnout. think we need more of that.
Absolutely. Yeah. I think there’s a push. mean, those a big motivator when I started to do my event is, you know, let’s make this a little more spacious, give you some time to actually decompress, relax, hopefully go home refreshed and not just like completely tired and overwhelmed with information.
Yes, physically and emotionally psychologically refreshed.
Yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. That’s really cool. Well, we can talk a lot about that. But for now, we’ll just leave that in the show notes and let people check it out. But yeah, I wanted to ask you’ve been doing, I’ve seen it on your Facebook and know that you’ve been deeply involved. Some of these.
Uriah Guilford (08:47.211)
It’s fun. I like going out and meeting my friends in cool places.
I know, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of our online friends, you know, it’s nice to have these meetups. But today we’re talking about AI and trying to get super practical. So the intent, at least for me, is not to necessarily talk about AI and testing specifically, but more how does this fit into your life, to your practice, to business, that kind of thing. I’m just, you know, I really, like I said, trust what you’ve been doing.
in this realm and know that you investigate a lot of tools. And I’m just curious to check in and see what you’re thinking about all this.
Absolutely. I think you might say the same. I’m an enthusiast, certainly not an expert. This is not my field of study, but it is my field of passion to a certain degree, Like the intersection of business and therapy and technology. think it’s obviously a fascinating time to be alive. In my lifetime, in your lifetime, we’ve seen some pretty cool things with the advent of the personal computer, the internet, and now AI. It’s pretty wild when you think about it.
When you step back like that. Yeah, it really is. It’s pretty incredible. So I’m trying to think where to start. Maybe I’ll start with something that I heard the other day and I would love to get your thoughts on this. And you may have heard this as well, but I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about the current top use cases for AI at this point in time and how they’ve shifted. But the top, let’s just say five use cases are
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (10:24.034)
Number one, therapy and companionship. Number two, organizing your life. Number three, finding purpose. Four, enhancing learning. Five, generating code. Six, generating ideas. So, right off the bat, how do you react to this?
Interesting. Yeah, I think the use cases for AI are only going to expand and we can talk about what the future might look like. I think we probably want to spend most of time in like, what does now look like? But absolutely, you know, most people will have their own personal AI and you will also probably have your life coach and your fitness coach and, you know, fill in the blank, all kinds of different agents that will help you with different tasks and projects in your life, including yes, companionship, which is pretty wild.
so I think, I think people are just starting to understand. Like the, the possibilities, right? We’re like also, we’re scared, we’re unsure about it, but then we’re also interested and excited. So, and then I think like everybody falls somewhere on that spectrum of, you know, fearful to like enthused, you know what mean?
Yeah, yeah, where do you fall on that spectrum?
Yeah, so I picked up a book recently called Super Agency by Reid Hoffman, and he’s actually the guy who founded LinkedIn. And I’ve just started reading the book, but he does have this interesting model of like putting people in sort of buckets of where they stand with AI. And I’m not going to say it perfectly, but essentially like it’s Doomer, Gloomer, Bloomer and Zoomer. I think I got that right actually. Basically people who are super negative about it, like, you know, this technology is going to take over humans and like
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (11:59.128)
That was pretty good.
Uriah Guilford (12:06.422)
ruin life as we know it, right? All the way to Zoomer, which is super optimistic about it, even like take off all the regulations, let’s go. And he says in the book that he is a bloomer, which is like optimistic about AI and excited about the possibilities, but also like, hey, let’s be thoughtful and careful about this and yes, have some regulations. So think I would be in that category.
Yeah, I like that. would agree with that. I’ve always said I’m an AI optimist, but I like that. That adds another layer, fleshes that out a little bit. I’m definitely not like a, let’s take off all the regulations and just see what happens. Totally cool. No. Okay. That sounds good. Yeah. So I like that we’re coming at it from a similar place. I think to the horses out of the barn, like it’s not going anywhere and
No, no, no.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (12:58.23)
Almost like resistance is futile. sounds bad.
Yeah, post that in the Facebook groups with a bunch of therapists, right? Right. Yeah. I heard you say on a recent episode that if you don’t kind of get on board with AI, you will be left behind. And I thought that’s bold, but I think it’s true.
Yeah, I think so. Well, let’s dig into some practicalities. We can start maybe just like business wise. So I’m curious right off the bat, like you have a group practice, you have your, I cannot think of the word, the assistant business, the virtual assistant. How are you using AI in your businesses these days?
Yeah, so I’ll tell you one of the things I’m most excited about is voice AI agents. So we can talk about that. We’ll get there. Yeah. I actually met somebody really interesting in Chicago that works for a company that built an EHR for physical therapists that has a brilliant voice AI agent built into the EHR. So definitely we can talk about that. So that’s something that I’m exploring, but like on a practical level, to be honest with you, it’s mostly just leveraging
chat GPT and getting the most out of that that I can both for writing copy, both, you know, obviously for marketing and for writing emails, making everything that I write better. And I’m also using it for business strategy. So like brainstorming and those kinds of things, as well as financial guidance, actually. So I’ve been taking my profit and loss statements and putting those into the chat GPT and getting all kinds of things from advice on how to scale my business.
Uriah Guilford (14:36.878)
to what numbers I should pay attention to, budget forecasts, projections, all kinds of fun stuff like that. So those are kind of the very practical ways that I’m using AI. And of course, the image generation has gotten a ton better, especially with ChatGPT. So I was creating a blog post yesterday and I found a a stock image that I liked, but it just looked like a stock image, right? So I popped it into ChatGPT and said, make this into a cartoon image.
And then I really liked the output. So I put that in my blog post. So those are the practical ways that I’m using it. but I’m definitely paying a lot of attention and currently trying to figure out how will AI help the administrative side of a private practice. Right. Realistically, right. That’s kind of my current project.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I’d love to pull on that thread a little bit. I mean, how far have you gone down that path and have you found anything so far that’s been worth really looking into?
Yeah. So I think the, voice AI agent is the thing I’m most excited about. it’s not, it’s not like incredibly advanced or like a wild idea, but it’s very practical. Cause ever since I started productive therapists, therapists have been calling saying, I really want someone to live answer my phone. Right. I have all these incoming referrals and I want to match these people with either myself or my team of therapists. And we just can’t get back to them fast enough. That’s like a perennial problem.
And so at Productive Therapist, we don’t do live answer because we have shared virtual assistants, right? So it’s not realistic. And the answer up until now has been, well, you should either hire someone full-time to sit in your office or sit somewhere, right? Answer the phone. But even that is not 100 % coverage. So then we say, you should hire a virtual receptionist company, which is a call center to answer your phone, right? But then it’s not personal and it’s a different person every time. And they might not say the name of your business correctly and provide the level of care that you want, you know.
Uriah Guilford (16:35.118)
et cetera, et cetera. So now the thing that I’m excited about is being able to install an AI voice agent in a practice and have it answer the phone 24 seven, 365, obviously never get sick, never goes on vacation. And then it can do some basic things. And then actually the best part for me is schedule an intake consultation with a human intake coordinator. So that combination of the AI voice agent with the human intake coordinator, streamlining that client journey.
That’s what I’m most excited about right now.
Yeah, it’s super exciting. I heard you talk about this on Maureen’s podcast, the Practice Exchange, a little bit. This is a few months ago, I think now. And yeah, I want to dig into this a little bit. Have you found a specific platform that is catching your interest at this point, like ones that are rising to the top?
Yeah, I’m glad you asked. So I tested a bunch of these kinds of tools and a lot of them, you know, they all say that they’re secure, right? And they give you promises about how they handle the data, et cetera, et But we have obviously high standards, both in the medical field as well as the behavioral health field. And so we need things that are HIPAA compliant and not just like put the sticker on it. Like, Hey, we promise it’s HIPAA compliant, right? It’s got to be really secure to use with our clients. So there’s a lot of good tech out there.
but it’s not necessarily geared towards behavioral health or mental health. With that said, the two of the main CRMs that a lot of therapists are using have a platform that has voice AI agents built in. And I’ve been testing that and some of my friends have been testing it as well. So I turned that on. I use it for productive therapists just to see like, you know, no PHI involved, right? So I’m not concerned about that at all. So I turned it on for a little while and I tested it and I can tell you, I’ll tell you about that experience.
Uriah Guilford (18:26.264)
But it works. like, I can give you the phone number right now and you could call it and you could talk to Jennifer, my AI agent. And she would do a number of things, be able to have a conversation with you. And at this point, like the latency is low, which means like you say something and then you don’t have to wait a long time for the agent to come back and say something. And the, voices that they’re, putting into these platforms are, they’re even adding like all kinds of nuances of human voice, right? So breathe.
breathing that’s natural and like tone and cadence that’s natural. So it’s like actually pretty good. Yeah.
That’s remarkable. So these are built into, you said the CRM platforms.
Right. And I’m happy to name those too, but I think they’re both to my knowledge, they’re both testing this out before they’re actually releasing it to the folks that use their platform. So I don’t want to announce it before it’s out there, but I know that they’re testing it and the platform, just so everybody knows, it’s called High Level. And there’s a number of companies that are making a mental health specific version of that. And it’s really good. I’m using it currently for productive therapists and I like it a lot.
Yeah
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (19:36.846)
That’s great. Yeah. I’ve heard a lot about, about that software. Nice.
Question for you, have you had any interactions with voice AI agents? Like just calling the internet company or calling anywhere else?
Yeah, yeah. I mean the basic ones. I don’t know that I’ve interacted with any super sophisticated ones to this point, except for the ones that I was kind of messing around with and testing for our practice. They seem to be a little more advanced, you know? Sure. I’ve been looking into it a little bit as well. Yeah.
People just want to go give it a demo and like just have an experience, right? So I would check out bland.ai and then also synthflow, synth like, you know, synthesizer, synthflow. I think it’s dot AI. I’m just having a con they have like a demo, like, you know, press this button, call, have a conversation with the voice agent. It’s really good. Yeah. And, and my feeling about this too is most people consumers will call them, right? Potential clients, if, if they’re talking to a, a bot, an agent,
And they know it, but it also helps them move forward and solve part of their problem. I don’t think they mind a connection with a human person that’s going to guide you still feels better. Like when I call, I’ve been calling, you know, to schedule, outpatient, like an outpatient surgery. And I like to talk to Stephanie and she, like, I know Stephanie now. Right. And so she’s like part of my health journey. and I’ve had some recent interactions with.
Uriah Guilford (21:01.9)
voice agents where I’m like, this is frustrating. hate this, All that is true.
So yeah.
Yeah, think that’s what people or even personally I think about that. I’ve had bad experiences and with voice AI and that is frustrating and maybe that’s people are shying away from it for that reason.
Yeah. I was recently in Chicago at this event, like I mentioned, and I, I lost my, I thought I lost my jacket and I thought I left it in the hotel lobby. And so I was out and about doing something with my friends and I called the hotel to try to find my jacket. And it was a voice AI agent that was actually quite good. And it identified that I had lost an item and then it said, I’m going to text you the link. have like a system where you can report a lost item and it will help you find it.
And so it texted me the link and I was like, great, that’s what I needed. And that’s what they would have told me if I talked to a human as well. So I was like, okay, not that experience, right? I like that. I like that. And you know, most people tell me if you think this is not true, but most people calling a therapist in 2025, most people are not going to get a human after three to five rings, right?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:03.256)
Yeah, so.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (22:18.446)
That’s true. I hear that all the time. Nobody answers the phone.
Yeah. So that’s like the main application that I’m excited about. I mean, I’m looking for other ways that AI can, can streamline the admin side of a practice. The problems that I’m running into though, is some of the tools that I’ve tested, that you need to give them access to like your email and your calendar. And if there’s client information in there, like that makes it just all the more complicated. So I haven’t quite figured out how to get over some of those hurdles. Let’s say for the practice owner or for the admin team.
What do you think about that?
Right. No, I’m in the same boat because then, yeah, we’re talking about the security and the privacy issues and are they, is all that locked up. the other thing for me that is a huge hurdle is that it doesn’t seem like in a lot of these cases, you need access to the EHR to be truly helpful. And a lot of our EHRs don’t have an easy way to hook into them or connect to them. You know, some of them have APIs, right? Which is kind of like
the coding version to connect, know, but that’s hard. And who knows how to do that as a lay person. So that’s been my biggest hurdle, to be honest, is trying to figure out how to have something be helpful.
Uriah Guilford (23:45.122)
I know you were talking about the idea of an AI chatbot on the therapist website in one of your recent episodes. you mentioned the integration with the EHR, which is a challenge because they’re not open systems, right? Like there are open source platforms that publish their API so that you can connect one tool to another, one piece of software to another. Most EHRs don’t have that. I think larger ones in the medical industry do.
And I remember I saw a demo that really kind of blew me away. It was a couple of months ago. so it was like a mock, you know, think it was a medical practice website, right? And so I went on this demo site and can’t remember the name of the tool, but you basically click on the chat bot that’s in the bottom right hand corner and then you can chat with it. But the integration with all the things, so it was like website plus AI chat bot plus EHR integration. So.
in this demo said, you know, like I’m looking for a pediatrician for my eight year old daughter, right? And then the chat bot actually said, gave me all the answers about insurance, et cetera. And it said, well, here are our female pediatricians for children. Yeah. And then it allowed me to schedule a consultation or some sort of meeting with the pediatrician. I was like, that is a streamlined process that I would love, but this is, talking like, this is very expensive and like, these are large systems, health systems, right?
And so for the average private practice with, you know, five therapists or 50 therapists, like we don’t have access to these tools yet. But that’s kind of the dream. And that would be the most, I think the most streamlined client journey for, for, for, you know, potential clients. That’s what I would love to create. Honestly, it’d be cool.
Yeah, yeah, I agree. It’d be amazing. We do kind of get forgotten maybe in the mental health world because EHRs, not, you know, we’re not using these super sophisticated medical EHRs.
Uriah Guilford (25:41.366)
So I told you when I was in Chicago, I someone who works for a guy named Jimmy, and he works for an EHR called Othellos, and this is for physical therapists. And I kind of learned that it seems like people in the physical therapy world are a little bit ahead of the therapy world. And I don’t know if that’s true for other medical professions, but it might be. So this EHR has an AI voice agent built in that can actually even outbound, make outbound calls to insurance and sit on hold.
to accomplish certain tasks. And I was like, are you serious? What? Right? Yeah. I don’t know how that works or what the, you know, what the effectiveness of that is, but just the idea. And if you can make it work, but like that’s a pain point, right? Trying to track down denied claims, let’s just say. That’s one of the things that we’ve never been able to really do at Productive Therapist because it just takes so much time. It doesn’t make sense to pay for that.
Yeah, that’s remarkable.
Uriah Guilford (26:37.966)
So that’s what I’m most interested in is like all the tools are cool. All the interesting things that these companies are putting out are, yeah, they’re interesting, but like what’s going to actually make a difference for my team so that my team says, wow, this really makes my work better, easier, faster. And I love it. That’s what I’m on the hunt for and for myself too.
Yeah, yeah, I’m right with you. I’m right with you. We are doing it. It’s super simple, but I’m not sure if you would even call this AI necessarily, but we’re doing, you know, our team is using it a lot for email generation or even just like email templates or routing, you know, like who should be answering this, that kind of thing. We also use it more as a, I would say thought partner. So it’s not a specific tool or solving a specific
admin problem exactly, but just starting to build that in, you know, okay, like, and look at these, I don’t know, whatever, three emails or these three documents and summarize it and like, how would you respond to this? know, something like that. And it just saves, you know, what might take an hour, all of sudden there’s a 10 minute task. And then my admin team, you know, they get to just edit a response instead of creating and thinking through and agonizing.
handles, difficult clients or something.
that thought partner idea and are you actively training your team on how to do these things or are they learning it and then telling you what they’re doing? How’s that going?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (28:10.348)
Yeah, it’s a little bit of both. I would say probably 25 % training versus 75 % experimenting on their own. If I had to break it down. Yeah. I’m curious. I know that was one of the things that we’re going to chat about and I’m curious about that for you. Are you kind of purposefully building AI into the business now and doing training and encouraging folks to use it? you know, how, how do you view this with your staff?
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Dr. Jeremy Sharp (30:05.026)
It was developed with a three factor model from the brief too, which characterizes executive functioning deficits more clearly. It also offers updated norms, new forms and new reports. Learn more at parinc.com slash products slash b r i e f two a. All right, let’s get back to the podcast.
Yeah. So I’m on the, I’m in the beginning stages of that. actually went and bought productive therapist.ai just, know, to see what I want to use that for. Might as well. So every, every month we have a all staff meeting and so we have something called Uriah’s AI Corner. So I’m like demoing something, showing them how to do something kind of informing them. I want, I think I want to do some longer trainings too, because some of these things it’s, it’s helpful to show and tell and then have people do it themselves.
Yeah, yeah.
Uriah Guilford (30:55.97)
Yeah. And the simplest use cases, emails that you have to send or creating templates, that kind of stuff makes sense. But I’m trying to help my leadership team as well. And we’re actually doing some of this like together, right? So we, what was it recently? I was talking with my director of HR and finance and we together were on a call and she was using her chat GPT account. And I said, well, let’s ask it this, trying to remember what we were doing.
but I was basically showing her how I think about prompting AI and going back and forth and using it to get the best outputs, which, you know, anybody can open up ChatGPT or Claude and then just like ask stuff. But it does turn out that the better you are at asking questions and giving it context, the better outputs you get and the more value you get out of it. So there’s definitely some teaching and training along those lines. And then also I’ll mention too, like,
I’m sure a lot of therapists, whether it’s a testing practice or any other kind of practice, if you have other clinicians working for you and you have an admin team, some of those people are not going to be super excited like Jeremy and I, right? And so the way that you roll these things out and or if you choose to require it, the way you do that and the way you communicate that is super important because on my team of virtual assistants, some people are like, I’m not interested in AI. And then some people are like, I just used it two minutes ago. So.
We have to figure out how to help everybody get to some sort of baseline competence with this, you know, without telling them like, you better learn this, otherwise your job is going to not exist.
which is the route that some companies are taking, Yeah, yeah. I mean, in as many words, but. I agree.
Uriah Guilford (32:36.674)
So I think that transition, if you will, is super important. So it’s like, as leaders, as a practice owner, you have to really think about why you want to use it, what’s the reason behind it, and how you communicate the benefits. Because I’m a tech nerd, right? So it’s easy for me just to say, look what I did with AI, everybody. Isn’t this cool? And they’re like, how does that change my life?
So I’m trying to think about like, put myself in their shoes and go like, okay, what’s a pain point in my intake coordinators life on a daily basis, right? so one thing that I’ll mention too, that I haven’t turned on yet because my team was like, I don’t know about this. So with high level, this CRM marketing automation platform, it has an AI chat bot as well. And you can install that on your website just as expected, right? But you can turn on, you can turn on or off the AI component. So it can be just.
humans responding or it can be AI responding. And the interesting thing about it is, of course, you prompt this AI chatbot to know what you want it to know. like if it will automatically, if somebody texts or like uses the chatbot, I can pop in there or one of my team members can pop in there and take over the conversation from AI. And then if we pop out, AI will continue to respond. So it’s going to take some testing to figure out how to get that right. But
But I like that idea of like an always on sort of communication channel. It’s helpful.
Yes. Yeah, same, yeah, capturing leads is always a good thing in my mind. You, anything you can do to not miss, especially now people feel like on demand communication is key and people won’t wait very long before they move on to the next.
Uriah Guilford (34:24.558)
Actually, and nurturing for sure. Because there’s often more than one touch point, certainly, you know, from just like a local awareness or brand awareness standpoint. And then also, you some people reach out for therapy or testing and then they kind of ghost or disappear and then maybe they come back. So I think those touch points and the accessibility is super important.
Yeah, 100%. I want to go back to something that you mentioned a second ago. And it made me think about sort of the training aspect of AI. So I’m in a little small discussion group with a couple other clinicians about like AI, using AI and that kind of thing. And it came up the other day, they’re both therapists primarily. And it came up the other day, you know, this question around, you know, if we use some of these AI note writing tools,
that are getting baked into some of the EHRs these days? Like does that prevent younger, early career clinicians from learning how to do it well? So are we actually doing them a disservice? And I think this comes up in testing too. There’s a lot of conversation around, do we let trainees use AI when we don’t know if they’ve mastered those skills? Analog, right? So I don’t know, I’m curious, have you been thinking about that very much? And if so,
sure.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (35:44.354)
What thoughts do you have?
What’s the consensus in your group or is it kind of divided?
trying to separate my personal consensus, my consensus from one from. Now, I think the general feeling is it’s great to have these trainees demonstrate competency in these skills before relying completely on AI. And I kind of look at it as a scaffolded approach where we start without it, demonstrate some competency, work through, do the supervision around these different skills, start to fold it in slowly.
you know, have some conversation around, okay, what was that like? What did you miss? What felt awkward? What felt good? You know, and like really turn it into a process versus just turning them loose or saying, totally shutting the door. Which requires a lot of investment as a supervisor or a leader, will say. But that’s right now, that’s where I sit with it.
Right.
Uriah Guilford (36:47.032)
So the questions around the professional development of early career clinicians and how do they learn the critical things that they need to learn in terms of like clinical decision making and obviously documentation. mean, right now you learn a lot of that. You learn some of it in school, but not really, right? You learn it in practice and then you learn it really in your supervision relationship. So I kind of agree with you on that middle of the road option, but like AI is really
excellent at teaching, like at presenting information, answering questions, and analyzing data, all those things. So I actually think in some ways, AI would be a great teacher to show a clinician how to write a good note. What does a good note look like? It could actually replicate some of those supervision conversations, and then maybe some of the more emotional components or psychological components of the work still makes sense with a human supervisor.
But I don’t know that I would, I’m trying to think about this because I have a couple of associates in my practice, right? And we have not turned on AI note writing or the AI note taking feature yet. We’ll use simple practice, but I’m, very eager to turn it on just cause I want to test it out. Right. And I’m curious to see what their response to that will be and their, what their experience will be like first time, like, right. First time ever doing it. but I don’t know that a period of time without that, at some point that won’t exist, right. Cause it’ll be like.
It will just be baked in. you said, yeah, it is interesting. Yeah.
Yeah, I wonder how the medical profession approaches it. Like I just have this assumption, I don’t know if it’s true or not, that physicians have been doing this forever. Like they have scribes and transcription and AI summaries and have probably been relying on that for a lot longer than we have. And it’s fine, maybe.
Uriah Guilford (38:43.53)
But weren’t they doing it like on their own time, but like not in the medical consultation? Because I think it was only maybe like a year or two ago when my doctors started like putting their phone down saying, is it okay if I record this, you know, for my note taking purposes? And my answer was like, that’s fine. I’m just talking to you about my shoulder, you know, nothing terribly personal or, know, but maybe were the medical scribes being used by doctors like after the appointment and they were dictating?
I’m actually, I don’t know the answer to that. Yeah, they’re using them, but how?
That’s a good question.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (39:19.223)
And is there a skill in writing notes? I guess that’s a question as well. Like what skill are you actually teaching there and is it important in the way to being a therapist or a testing person?
There are a couple of AI note writing tools that are expanding their features. And one that I’m aware of in particular is going beyond just like listening to the session, writing the note for you. It’s actually doing treatment planning or assisting in treatment planning, which is a logical next step. But then this one particular tool is also giving the clinician prompts before the next session. So like a little summary, this is what you talked about before.
This is what you might want to address in this session. And it’s starting to do more and more things, even like kind of approaching sort of clinical thought partner, if you will, to use your terminology where you can like chat, you know, the AI tool kind of knows has access to all of your sessions whenever you started using it. And so it, knows the whole history of that client. So then you can ask it questions about what should I do as a therapist in the room with this person? So that’s kind of wild, but interesting too. It is.
It is. Yeah, that reminds me of, I forget where I saw this. I’ve been reading so much stuff, but there is some tool out there and I forget if it’s like live or if it’s coming, but it takes it to the next level even where it’s analyzing maybe even the video of a session and the audio to determine like, are you implementing this treatment model to fidelity? Like, are you actually doing cognitive behavioral therapy? If not, like here’s some feedback on how to like,
you know, attend to this emotion or this thought or this behavior or whatever. And, you know, are your interventions like matching what the client is telling you that whole thing? that’s fascinating to me.
Uriah Guilford (41:09.632)
Was it, was it by chance, mentalic? I.
I don’t know. I’m not connecting it right now, but it very well could have been.
I talked to somebody from that company not too long ago and they were releasing some, think something they were calling Alliance Genie that would actually evaluate the therapeutic Alliance, I think from audio and transcripts, know, when I was like, Oh, that’s interesting. So I have like two thoughts about that, Jeremy, like on the one hand, like I saw clients for 20 years and then I stopped, right? So a decent amount of experience. And for the, for a lot of that experience, I had either supervision or I had regular consultation with other clinicians. So I was.
I had support. wasn’t like completely going solo, but the majority of my work, obviously as a therapist, just me, just me writing my notes, just me trying to figure out like, I doing a good job? Like, am I helping people? so on the one hand, I think I would have loved these tools because I probably would, I probably would have become a better therapist faster, but then also having all this like external insight into my, what I’m doing with my clients, feels like invasion to a sacred space, you know?
And also like, somebody looking over my shoulder. And I always, I appreciate that about private practice specifically was like, I get to do the work that I get to, that I want to do in the way that I want to do it. And that’s just between me my clients. like that. So I’m on, I’m on both sides of that, know?
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (42:35.754)
It’s a tough call. It’s a tough call. I’m just trying to think back. I think I would rather have something like an AI tool than a real person. don’t know. Making those judgments and suggestions. don’t know. Grad school is tough for me. having to observe you and comment in the moment. But I’m with you.
One of my thoughts, and I’m not good at predicting the future, but one of my thoughts is that at some point in the near future, quote unquote, good treatment will look like human therapists plus AI assistant or AI, whatever you want to call it. And then therapists who don’t use AI or incorporate that into their treatment protocols will either be more desirable by some, but like not desirable by a lot of folks.
I think that will happen. I could be wrong, but I think that will happen.
think you’re probably right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder if we’re heading down this path. Yeah, like a diverging path, sort of like the folks who are willing to embrace and really leverage those tools or not. And then if that’s going to, you know, the latter folks are going to fall by the wayside.
I know. see how that shakes out. mean, I love the idea of AI making some kind of mental health support accessible to all humans because there’s a big gap now and I don’t see it going away, right? Either you can afford out of pocket or you have good insurance and a lot of people don’t have either of those privileges, right? So I’m very interested in that. And, but obviously there’s the fear about like, are these tools going to take over human therapists jobs?
Uriah Guilford (44:24.942)
chat about that if we want to. But I like that accessibility standpoint. And I was talking to my friend Connor, who we both know about this recent study that came out of Dartmouth on the Therapy Bot clinical trial. I don’t if you saw this. I’ll send it to you because it’s actually a fascinating read. And this just got published about a little over a month ago. And to make a long story short, they did a clinical trial with obviously some people who didn’t have any mental health support and then some people who had unlimited unfettered.
They use the word unfettered access to therapy bot to chat with at any time of day or night about, and these are folks with depression, anxiety, and some like disordered eating kind of challenges. And the outcomes were really positive. People, a lot of people liked it. They felt like this was actually a friend and their symptoms went down by the order of about 51 % on depression. I think it was like 30 % on anxiety.
and somewhere around 17 % on eating disorder behaviors. And so like actually pretty close to the results of seeing a human therapist. And so there’s questions. said like they were monitoring it very closely the entire time. So they were seeing everything that was happening, making sure that it was safe and making sure that their AI model that they’ve been working on since like 2018, 2019 was actually doing, know, giving good sort of feedback. I read that and I was like, oh,
If you’re a therapist and you say like, no one can ever replace the human connection that I provide to my clients. Well, I don’t know. Interesting, right? It is.
Absolutely. It is. Yeah. That’s both terrifying and…
Uriah Guilford (46:06.766)
You
actually not surprising. Yeah. There’s clearly something behind it. mean, that’s going back to that first thing that we started talking about that that’s the number one use of AI right now is therapy in companionship, theoretically.
Yes. Combined. Potentially too, Yeah.
Yeah, which my issue with I have two things that come up with this. One is, those models safe? Because there are stories out there of AI models that are not, you know, discouraging people from committing suicide and things like that. Or like you have some of those stories out there. So, you know, the safety issue comes up and what is this bot saying or doing? And then the second issue is just like, I don’t know that
don’t know that we need to be more online. So I’d be concerned about the loneliness epidemic, so to speak. And I want to know the next step, does this reduction in symptoms lead to better in-person connections somehow or to this person getting out in the world and building meaningful relationships? Or is it just, not just, but, or is it just reduction in symptoms?
Uriah Guilford (47:20.428)
Yeah, definitely. Are we moving to like a ready player one style society? I’ve never read that book. It’s fascinating. It’s so interesting. Yeah. Good, bit of sci-fi that could actually come true where basically everybody is online all the time in their version of a metaverse, right? I think that’s hopefully far in the future, but yeah, if these, if these tools can help us live more full lives and have better relationships. And I think that that is intriguing. but.
I know my friend Connor and I, like I mentioned, we were talking about all this recently and he was bringing up the question of like, so if you have unfettered access to an AI therapist, let’s say, right. Then does that actually take away your sort of internal agency to think on your own, look inside of yourself, solve your own problems, access internal resources versus being like, you know, like, and obviously people with anxiety might be like, I have to have my phone. have to talk to my AI therapist all the time. Right.
Like that could be a negative sort of dependence, if you will. So my response to him, cause he’s a depth psychologist, right? I said, well, I said, you know, Connor AI would tell that client, like, maybe you should put your phone down and think about this. like, you look inside of yourself, right? And I was like, okay, that’s an interesting thought. Definitely. Yeah.
I wrestle with a version of that, think, even in the professional world, which is kind of this idea of, yeah, like relying on the AI too much and does it totally short circuit any critical thinking or analytical thinking. you know, again, eternally optimistic. like, well, I think we could probably figure that out. Like, if you, you know, maybe it’s built into the bot, like you said, it would prompt it to do so. Or, yeah, just kind of teaching and shaping.
the use to be more like, here’s what I’m thinking, what am I missing or. like more clear. Yeah, exactly.
Uriah Guilford (49:17.838)
Exactly. I just heard the other day that when the calculator was invented, a lot of people thought like, this is terrible. Nobody’s ever going to do math, right? And when the printing press was invented and books were readily available, there was a fear about like too much reading will actually be problematic and detrimental to society. So, you know, I think humans adapt. We do. We just adapt. This feels different to be honest. Like this is not the microwave or the automobile. This is like.
This is different in a lot of ways. And there’s a lot of legal and ethical issues to consider. and who owns the data and how’s it protected and how’s it used that that part is, that’s the part I think that a lot of therapists are wary of and rightfully so. Right.
Yeah, yeah. How are you thinking about that? And how are you talking maybe with your, I don’t know, clients or other people about, not clinical clients, but customers maybe. Yeah, I mean, how are you thinking about privacy and like choosing tools that are being responsible and that kind of thing?
Definitely. It’s a really tough thing to do. I heard this saying just the other day, someone said, vet it or regret it. So the idea there is like, when you choose a tool, let’s say an AI no writing tool, make sure you choose a company and investigate, ask the questions, look through their con, not their contract, but their privacy policies, like really look into it. It’s, super tempting to just be like, this is the coolest tool that just came out. I’m just going to sign in, give it access to everything and go for it, you know, but it’s important to like look into these things. But at the same time,
We’re really just, we’re left with mostly trusting the word of these. Some are small corporations, some are large corporations. Like they can say whatever they want to say. I mean, yes, it’s in their best interest to not break all these rules. Cause if they say they’re HIPAA compliant and then they’re not, that could obviously be detrimental to their business model. But you know, I was actually on Facebook recently and I was.
Uriah Guilford (51:17.368)
Just kind of like, you know, looking at the threat of people talking about AI note writing tools. And there’s so many people that are just convinced that no matter what these companies say, they’re, they’re taking our transcripts and they’re training our replacements. You know, mean, maybe some of that is true. And I will mention one, one company that I’ve gotten to know recently that I think is an exception. There’s a guy named John Swistar from Quill Therapy Notes.
Got to know him on LinkedIn. He’s a really great guy. It’s really just him and his wife that are building this AI note writing tool. And he has a very strong ethical stance on no session recording. So he has a way of providing that service and like a very value standpoint on that. And just getting to know him and his, the values of his company, think. Like I trust this person and I trust this company a bit more than I might trust some other larger entity.
So there’s that standpoint too. Yeah. That’s fair.
Yeah. Yeah. It’s good to know those are out there. I know there are a lot of small companies that are not totally.
Totally. They’re trying to be scrappy and see if they can survive. I’m sure, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (52:33.294)
So I know we’ve been chatting for a while and there’s a lot to feel like we barely scratched the surface, let’s maybe do some fun stuff. What, at least up to this point, like what have been your maybe most unique or most engaging use cases for AI, either personal or professional?
Yeah. I don’t know if this is unique or engaging, but I’m just constantly surprised at how much better chat GPT is than Google, for so many different things. and so I’ve just been using it obsessively. Like I was just in Chicago and I went to a game at Wrigley field. And so I was just sitting there. I just had so many, I had so many questions. I was like, how old is this stadium? know, they have like an actual pipe organ. Is that unique? How many baseball stadiums have a pipe organ?
and so was like, I was just like, you know, talking to chat, GBT and just learning so many things and then sharing it with my friends. And at one point I took a picture of the stadium and I was like, where am I? And of course it immediately knew and then told me things about that. So I know that’s kind of basic, but it’s like just enhancing my interest in my, my experiences and in the world. so that that’s kind of one thing that I did recently that was unique to me, at least I.
really enjoy graphic design and I enjoy branding. And so I was at this conference and someone was up on stage talking about personal branding and how in the current AI age, developing a personal brand or like a strong brand for your practice is super important because you you don’t want people talking to their AI tool and saying like pizza near me, right? You want them to say Domino’s near me. You want to be the choice.
that they go to because you’re known, right? So I’m sitting there thinking, well, what is my personal brand? I’m thinking about productive therapists. I’m thinking about Intune family counseling. And I was like, well, I have this domain that I bought a while ago and I have this little website called heyyouraya.com. And people do ask me, cause I’m this tech nerd, like therapist person. They’re like, Hey, you’re right. Do you know a good CRM for therapists? like, what’s a good Google AdWords company or whatever they’re asking, right? So I was like, I could make a personal brand out of Heyyouraya. So like I pop onto chat GPT and I’m,
Uriah Guilford (54:53.194)
upload my productive therapist logo and I say, use these colors and this style to create a personal brand for me with the words, Hey, Uriah. So in literally like less than three minutes, I had a professional looking cool logo. And then it started collaborating with me on developing the voice of this personal brand. know, I was like, Whoa, Whoa. Like not too many years ago, I would literally email my graphic designer and say, Hey, I have this idea. And then like one to two weeks later, here’s.
Here’s a concept art. You may, yeah. And then the cool thing is that you, don’t know if you’ve done this, but you can go back and say, well, change this, change this color, move this over. actually I don’t like that image. Let’s add a, you know, image of a computer or what I’m going to do next is like add a cartoon face of Uriah onto the logo, you know? So that sort of creative iterative process. It’s just fun.
like, then,
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (55:49.58)
It is fun. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.
Yeah, that makes me think of something I did recently. I had to create a birthday card for my wife. So one of my favorite versions of prompting is whatever I ask it or I’m talking or tell it to do or whatever, I’ll add something along the lines of ask me any questions you need in order to do the best job that you possibly can on this task. And then it’ll ask a bunch of questions. So I kind of use that framework to make a birthday card for
my wife, you so it was asking me, you know, what’s her personality like? How long have you been together? there any moments you want to highlight? What’s her, what colors does she like? What she, you know, and what graphical style are you going for? Watercolor? Do you want more photorealistic? You know, and so I ended up with this like, made birthday card and, you know, with a message that was pretty personal, which is kind of odd, but so that’s one. What’s the other? I use Claude.
That’s cool.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (56:52.194)
a months ago to write a software program that would calculate the odds of my son’s soccer team making the regional playoffs based on every team’s record and their goals scored and all that. So I’ve fed all that in and have run that program throughout the season and that’s been super fun.
That’s amazing. Little, you know, do you know what they call that? It’s called vibe coding. Have you heard that? yeah. Yeah. It’s got an interesting name, but it’s just basically when someone with no coding experiences uses a tool like that to like make something that’s custom. Right. I haven’t done it yet, but that sounds like fun.
That’s a lot of fun. was shockingly easy. I’m not, yeah, I have basically zero coding knowledge, but that’s part of the deal. It was super cool. like asked it, like, here’s the problem I’m trying to solve, write a program that will do that. It did that. Then I was like, I have no idea what to do with this code. Where do I put this to even make it run? And it told me and gave me several options and I tried it I was like, oh, that didn’t work. Can you figure out what went wrong? And it did that. you know, 30 minutes later I had this working.
program.
That’s amazing. So I’ll tell you one other version of that or something similar. I’m hanging out with my daughter yesterday. I picked her up from school and she had this project where she had to connect with or take a selfie with like a state or federal official. This is for her government class. And it could be, you know, she had this plan to get on this like public Zoom call with some state officials and then like take a selfie of her in front of the computer. And that was like sufficient, right? But the call was canceled for some reason.
Uriah Guilford (58:26.454)
And so she’s like, I’m stuck. want to, need to get this thing done. So we stopped the car and we park in the, in the driveway and start talking to chat GBT, like who are our California state officials? Okay. Great. Fantastic. And do any of these live in Sonoma County where I, where I am. Right. And, okay. These, these two people live in Sonoma County. I recognize that name. Chris Rogers. Okay. Yeah. I used to be connected to him through that nonprofit that I used to volunteer at. You know what? I think we’re actually friends on Facebook.
So I go to Facebook and like pop open messenger and I, you know, message my local state officials say my daughter has this project, you know, so far I haven’t gotten a response, but I really impressed my daughter. was like, my goodness. what he just did. I was like, yeah, dad points.
Totally. You’re not totally uncool. You know how to use it.
Right, right. Working on that. Yeah.
Yeah, that’s fantastic. Yeah. Do you start to close for today? Do you have thoughts? I know we talked a little bit about future applications of AI in our businesses, but yeah, any like pie in the sky, hopes, dreams, know, things you see coming down the pipe that might be interesting for mental health folks.
Uriah Guilford (59:20.506)
do just as we
Uriah Guilford (59:39.49)
Yeah, not to just like beat a dead horse, but I think if, if we can get a really excellent working voice AI agent for our practices, I think that is a game changer and hopefully eventually one that could actually do scheduling, rescheduling, et cetera, to just take that admin burden off of either the clinicians or the admin team and be something that is so good that clients, potential and current clients.
Enjoy using it and feel like they’re getting attention. They’re getting immediate access. Like, I think that would be amazing. So some combination of voice AI agent with like CRM with EHR, like that would be my dream. Um, and then I just have to figure out what productive therapists will do in that new world, which I am figuring out. Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to help people build it hopefully or connect the tools or something like that. Um, but like on a practical standpoint for people listening to this.
If you’re sort of a tech enthusiast or just tech curious, I just made that up. I would say go out and don’t, don’t like waste a bunch of time testing tools, unless like that’s your hobby, like me, and you just want to do that, but go out and search for a tool with a problem in mind. Right. what I sometimes do and what’s what other people do is they like, like I’m, trying these three tools or these five tools. Well, what do they do? And why is that important? I’m not sure yet.
That’s a great way to just like waste an afternoon. But start with the problem and say like, okay, well, what do I want to solve for? What’s like a pain point or a bottleneck in my daily life, productivity wise, or in my practice? And then go out and find the tool that can hopefully help you solve part of that problem.
Yeah, yeah, I’ll just piggyback on that. That that’s one of the places where I’ve used AI to be almost like a coach is, you I have said on the podcast side, not with the practice yet, but I think it’s an easy extension. You know, analyze my workflow, essentially, like my client lead generation, my communication, my tech stack, my follow up, you know, the whole like workflow on consulting.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:01:51.79)
point out any gaps and recommend any efficiency improvements or software that could be helpful. And it was legitimately helpful. It asked a lot of questions. This was like a 30, 45 minute exercise, like going back and forth. So just to say that, if you don’t even know what the problem is, you’re just like, I’m overwhelmed and something’s not working and I’m unhappy. That might be a good place to start for folks is like, analyze my client onboarding and tell me what could be better and maybe you’ll get some.
some ideas on some problems and bottlenecks to work with. Yeah, that thought partner role is fun. Yeah, thanks for being here. Always good conversation.
Absolutely.
Uriah Guilford (01:02:32.686)
Definitely it’s fun. Thanks for having me. I look forward to the t-shirt.
Yeah, for sure. Well, I’m going to go to chat GPT and design it right after we.
I can tell you, actually, if you want, if anybody wants to design a cool t-shirt and just print a one-off, Canva is amazing. Cause you can design anything you want and you can print a shirt for $30 and they ship it to you. I did it recently for this conference I was sponsoring, right? And so you can steal this idea if you want. But I had two custom shirts that I made on Canva. One was a black shirt. And then it just said, ask me about intake audits. Cause I was like, you know, selling this, this intake audit service.
And then I had another shirt that just had one of my friends faces on it who was there. And then it said productive therapists. And then on the back, had like a QR code. So people were just like laughing at the fact that I had my friend’s face on the shirt. Right. But yeah, you can go print one-off shirts for like an event, for a birthday party, for like mother’s day, whatever you want to do. It’s pretty fun. That is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the good ideas. Hot tip. Hot tip.
super cool.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:03:32.684)
Well, if people want to talk to you more or figure out what you’re up to or get some resources, what is the best way to do that?
Productivetherapist.com is the place to go for all the things. Yeah. Okay. Love it.
Thanks again. All right, y’all. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode. Always grateful to have you here. I hope that you take away some information that you can implement in your practice and in your life. Any resources that we mentioned during the episode will be listed in the show notes, so make sure to check those out. If you like what you hear on the podcast, I would be so grateful if you left a review on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
And if you’re a practice owner or aspiring practice owner, I’d invite you to check out the testing psychologists mastermind groups. have mastermind groups at every stage of practice development, beginner, intermediate, and advanced. We have homework, we have accountability, we have support, we have resources. These groups are amazing. We do a lot of work and a lot of connecting. If that sounds interesting to you, you can check out the details at
testingpsychologist.com slash consulting. You can sign up for a pre-group phone call and we will chat and figure out if a group could be a good fit for you. Thanks so much.
Dr. Jeremy Sharp (01:05:08.034)
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