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Hey, y’all. Welcome back to the podcast. Today is a pretty special episode y’all. It’s episode 500. [00:01:00] I can’t believe that I’m saying that out loud. It started in 2017, 8 years later, 500 episodes down the road. It’s been a wild journey, a lot of ups and downs, and many beautiful moments. I’m happy to be here with you celebrating 500 episodes and reflecting back on what it is like.
First of all, super grateful to all of you. I hope I say that often enough, but this is definitely one of those moments to look back and embrace that gratitude. I appreciate all of you who are listening and have reached out for consulting and came in person to Crafted Practice, just building this business and helping to be a part of this experience for me.
I’ve connected with a ton of incredible people over the years from the [00:02:00] guests to y’all out there listening. And like I said, I’m very grateful for that. So thank you for listening. Thanks for being here. Thanks for doing this work.
My guest today is probably the most special. If you saw from the title, I’m talking to my wife, Carrie Haynes.
Carrie is a Licensed Professional Counselor here in Colorado. She got her Master’s in 2006 from Colorado State University. She served as the Director of Group Services at CSU’s Counseling Services from 2010 to 2017. She was an Adjunct Professor at the University of Northern Colorado and CSU during that time as well. In 2017, Carrie transitioned to private practice where she specializes in group work.
I’ve worked with Carrie for a long time. We were in graduate school, took classes together, and did practicals together before we started dating. [00:03:00] I’m not joking when I say that she is the best therapist I’ve ever seen. She is so intuitive, and she knows what to do with it. People love her, and her group work is even a step above that. She was born to do group work, and she’s fantastic at it. So I’m super lucky to get to hang with her all the time and run our little family group day to day.
Carrie specializes, like I said, in groups. She is an EMDR-trained therapist. She is trained in IFS. She was one of the OG ketamine-assisted therapy practitioners, has been trained since 2021, and like I said, just an amazing person.
I’m happy to have her here today. This is a personal conversation. We talk about the business. She’s a podcaster and has a private practice as well, but we talk about the personal journey and what [00:04:00] it’s been like over the last several years as primarily, I’ve built The Testing Psychologist, but she’s built her business as well and how we integrate business and family, and ups and downs associated with that.
I don’t know that there’s a ton to take away in terms of practice management or business strategies, necessarily, but I wanted to give a little peek behind the curtain of what’s happening in our lives and how we navigate this two-entrepreneur household.
So, without further ado, this is my conversation with my lovely and brilliant wife, Carrie Haynes.
Carrie, hey, welcome to The Testing Psychologist podcast.
Carrie: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Dr. Sharp: I’m glad to be here with you. I’ll start with the [00:05:00] question that I ask everyone when they come on the show, which is, why do this work? Out of all the things that you could do with your life and your time, why this?
Carrie: It’s an easy question to answer because I believe that connection and human relationships are what make life meaningful. The work that I do with clients, especially in groups, is all about that. It’s all about helping people to connect more deeply with themselves and others, which to me, life would be not meaningful, and not fulfilling if it wasn’t for our deep connections with other people. So that’s why.
Dr. Sharp: It makes sense. People have asked me a lot [00:06:00] when I talk to them about what you do; they ask me what Circlework is, what kind of groups you lead, and what they’re like, and I don’t actually have a great answer to that. And so, I thought that might be a good place to start. I would like to hear how you describe Circlework to people who might be interested or curious about it.
Carrie: I think it helps, especially for your audience, probably the people listening to this; they have some context. So the way I describe it to people who are in the field might be a little different than the way I describe it to people who are not. So I’ll describe it that way.
And what it is, is when I started working in group therapy, which a lot of your listeners probably understand more like psychodynamic groups, I felt magic that happened when people would connect in that space of intimacy and [00:07:00] the here and now, and being authentic with one another. That was the magic but there was something missing for me.
At times, I would question sometimes things that happened in groups that felt harmful or not as helpful, and wonder what created that magic. And so when I left the university, I went out into private practice. I was looking for filling in those gaps of the parts of group therapy that didn’t feel so helpful.
I had a sense of what might make them more helpful. I found Jalaja Bonheim. I found her through Tara Brach, which some of your listeners may know Tara Brach. She’s always been an inspiration to me.
What Jalaja Bonheim Circlework training taught me was how to bring the body more into group work, which I hadn’t really learned explicitly of how to do more [00:08:00] somatic practices. So Circlework adds the somatic practices.
The other piece that Circlework brings in is ritual. It brings in meditation and spirituality, not any particular form of spirituality, but it explicitly emphasizes the importance of some connection to something greater than ourselves.
These tenants of Circlework were what balanced it for me because I still had the connection, the intimacy, and the authenticity that I got from all the other group work. But now Circlework brings in the body, the spirit. So it felt like a more holistic approach.
The other thing that Circlework does that other group modalities that I’ve been trained in didn’t do as well is it starts with the assumption of wholeness. So we’re not trying to figure out what is the pattern? What are you doing that isn’t working? We’re reminding you of who you [00:09:00] are, which is whole and complete and perfect as you are. So those tenants. That’s how we practice Circlework.
So what if you were a fly on the wall and you came into one of my circles? The kind of things you would see is a really spacious environment, slower, oftentimes, we’ll sit on backjacks on the floor with a blanket. So there’s a comfiness. There are a lot of practices that are movement-based. There’s more silence. There’s some ritual. There’s also the sharing, connection, and processing that happens in other types of groups as well.
Dr. Sharp: I think about the distinction sometimes between therapy and therapeutic, and I wonder how do you think about that with Circlework? Would you call it therapy, or would you call it therapeutic, or both, or what?
Carrie: I think it depends on the type of circle that you’re [00:10:00] offering. Circlework can be adapted to be therapy. I’ve used it many times in that way.
There are times when I offer circles or groups that are more what I would consider therapeutic. They can go more on those lines of psychoeducation or restorative practices. And so I think it’s really about the skill of the facilitator, what your intention is, and how you’re going to use it.
Dr. Sharp: You talked about some of the harms of traditional groups. When we say traditional groups, I think we’re talking about Yalom-style interpersonal process therapy groups, more depth-oriented traditional therapy groups. I’m curious, when you say that there are some harms that Circlework might help with or avoid, what are you talking about?
Carrie: There are times in the [00:11:00] group work that I saw, part of the process would bring up people’s defenses instead of lowering them because people would be giving feedback or maybe it felt like an environment where we were looking for what are you doing that isn’t working? I’m not saying they’re all interpersonal because I think interpersonal groups can be amazing, especially when facilitated skillfully.
There were times, though, that I felt like people might just recapitulate their experience in a group and end up not getting that corrective emotional experience. And so that could be more harmful.
In Circlework, there’s a way of being that we focus on in the facilitator that is more heart-centered, that’s more present, that [00:12:00] minimizes the chances, but I am not under any illusion that Circlework could not also be harmful. I feel like any group work is a risk, and it can be used for better or worse. In any group environment, harm can happen.
For me, the ways that circles were facilitated complemented what I had learned. I still use all of my process-oriented skills. It’s just that I feel more balanced in having this more holistic approach, and it fits more with what’s been healing in my own life. The work that I’ve done.
Dr. Sharp: I think that’s a big part of it. You’ve done a lot of this work personally, and you’ve experienced it before offering it. I think that’s important.
I have to admit that when you first got into it, I didn’t know what you were talking about. It sounded pretty wild compared to [00:13:00] certainly the groups that we were used to and that we were trained in.
The audience doesn’t know, I don’t think, but we went through graduate school essentially together. You were in the Master’s program, and I was in the PhD program, but we overlapped a lot. We were trained by the same person and the same style of group facilitation, which was fantastic.
Carrie: Yes.
Dr. Sharp: And really the foundation of our relationship because we always joke that we met in group therapy and have been running our own little group for almost 20 years now with our kids and family. This is a vast departure from what we were used to. It was really interesting to see you go through this process. It feels like it fits your personality and the folks that you’re working with.
Carrie: What was it like to have me come back from that and just seeing my [00:14:00] excitement for it? Were you like, oh, is this going to stay or what?
Dr. Sharp: I knew that it fit for you. That was never really a question. I could tell this was something that really resonated with you, but I’m sure folks are not going to be surprised to hear that my mind was like, what is the evidence for this? What’s the research behind Circlework? Do we have anything to say that this is helpful or is this just women dancing in the woods or whatever? Which would be fine, but that’s where I went with it.
Over time, it’s clear whether there’s peer-reviewed research to support it or not, you can argue that it’s helpful and that it gives people something that they’re missing.
Carrie: I think that there is. I don’t know that anyone has [00:15:00] done peer-reviewed research on Circlework. More and more, we’re seeing all the modalities moving this way. IFS talking about Self and that’s research, that’s about connection to something greater is a big part.
So I think the aspects of Circlework do have research embodiment using polyvagal and all of these things are being incorporated; the meditation, the silence, all of that stuff, we can look at but it’s just like taking pieces of this modality and then seeing that they have been researched in other modalities. I think the combination makes them uniquely powerful.
Dr. Sharp: I think that’s true. I hear you describe these experiences and there’s a part of me that’s terrified at thinking about being in a group like this because like you said, there’s dancing and singing. [00:16:00] The meditation feels comfortable, but the dancing and the singing, that’s a little …
Carrie: It was terrifying for me the first time, too. Having been in a university for the first 10 years of my career, this was not the kind of stuff that I had done. We move into it really slowly. The dancing started out with just shaking with a lot of people, which a lot of people know that our nervous systems respond to just shaking.
So people aren’t asked to free dance right away, but I get it. That’s not something that most people are comfortable with. Singing was not comfortable for me, but it was incredibly freeing after challenging myself in that way to be able to move into being more self-expressed and noticing now that I love those practices, and they [00:17:00] were really hard before.
Men’s circles, I think there’s another edge that we’re working within men doing free movement, singing. You have probably some more cultural and social barriers there.
Dr. Sharp: We’ve talked about it mainly in the context of women or women-identifying individuals.
I wonder, what does it look like for men if it’s different?
Carrie: I have not facilitated many circles with men. I do modify it because some of the practices don’t seem to fit all gender groups. And really, at the heart, it’s the same thing. Men need to be in their bodies. And so, how do we find ways for people to get embodied? It doesn’t [00:18:00] have to be dancing. It could be stretching. It could be attending to what’s happening in the body.
So there’s a lot of ways to modify these practices to fit the audience because the last thing you want to do is get the audience that you’re serving out of their window of tolerance. I would probably be thinking about who are these men. What are they here for? What fits this group? And then how can I incorporate their body in ways that might be a little edgy, but wouldn’t be the deep end?
I think it’s interesting because in a lot of the psychedelic work that I’ve done with ketamine-assisted psychotherapy and having a lot of men in those spaces, and a lot of these practices are used for integration, at least the men in those spaces that come seem to yearn for spaces where they can be more free and where they can [00:19:00] move, sing, drum and do things like that just express themselves a little more freely. So I think it depends.
I modified some of the practices because some feel more “feminine” in nature. Although, I believe we all have all those aspects. So depends is probably the best way to put it.
Dr. Sharp: That’s reasonable. I think there’s something, we could go down that path for sure with gender norms and things like that, what’s okay and what’s not okay.
I think that’s the other side of the coin of the terror that I was talking about; thinking about being in a circle like that is that it’s terrifying, but I think that’s because it’s maybe not as okay for guys to let loose and be uninhibited in that way, [00:20:00] and in their bodies, feelings and all those kinds of things. But then the other side is like, oh, that sounds nice if I just had more maybe permission to do that. It’s also attractive in a way.
So, speaking of this kind of thing, who is an ideal candidate for a circle?
Carrie: That’s a difficult question. I think that anyone could be a candidate for circles. There has to be a bit of openness to this type of work.
For me, I believe that circle work is no different than any other type of group work. It’s just really the basis of how you’re doing it. So I adapt circles. What I’ve learned in the Circlework training, I have combined with all my group therapy training. I teach and train people to do this.
So I have people who are doing this [00:21:00] with middle schoolers, and they’re adapting it to middle schoolers. So how do we help middle schoolers be embodied? How do we add in just some movement? How do we talk about connection to something greater than themselves or nature? How do we do interpersonal practices so it works for middle schoolers and it can also work to utilize it in meetings? How do you make a meeting feel more intentional?
So, anyone is a good candidate for circle. It’s more the skill of the facilitator and the intention. For me, my focus has been mostly therapeutic work because of my background as a therapist, but Jalaja has trained a lot of people in doing circles for activism, for peacemaking.
So there’s a lot of ways to use it, but my specialty is helping therapists bring it in [00:22:00] and serve their unique population. I find that a lot of people that are attracted to the training are often women who are interested in serving all kinds of different populations but in a therapeutic way.
Dr. Sharp: That’s fair. Since you bring it up, I would love to know how to bring some of this work into my meetings. How does one bring some circle experience to a work meeting?
Carrie: I’ll just walk you through what I would do if I were facilitating a meeting and I wanted to shift it. Usually, the intention is like our meetings are too heady in the sense that we want to get things done, but we want to do it in a way that feels a little more intentional. And so I might put something, one part of Circlework [00:23:00] is beauty is an intentional part. So, bringing in beauty.
One thing that my teacher Jalaja says is beauty is love’s twin. Appreciating beautiful things, art, and not just for capitalistic use, but just for it being itself. So I might bring in flowers or something to have in the middle of the table, just add something small.
I would make sure that we’re sitting in a circle rather than sitting lined up or all scattered out because there’s something about being seated in a circle that feels different. You can just feel an energy that shifts when we’re all sitting that way instead of someone standing in front of the room.
I would take two minutes to help people drop in, and that doesn’t mean you have to do some long meditation, it can just be as simple as let’s just [00:24:00] take a deep breath and show up, and maybe check in and see, how are folks coming in today? With one word, how are you coming into this meeting? Just attend to who’s there.
In a lot of meetings, we need to get things done. So that might be enough; that in and of itself just shifted the energy and then we maybe facilitate it in a way that has some spaciousness. So maybe I want to try to make my meeting a little longer, to try not to be going as quickly, allow people a moment to breathe in the meeting, and so it can feel more nourishing and connecting for them. And that is the energy of bringing in a little more of a circle energy to a meeting space.
Dr. Sharp: If folks want to learn more, read about this, do you have any resources then?
[00:25:00] Carrie: They can go to my website, you have it, carriehayneslpc. And also Jalaja has written several books. I want to be clear that while she created Circlework, I have adapted it and it’s my own expression of multiple different types of group work I’ve trained in. So that’s one of the strongest pillars or foundations of the work that I do now, but the interpersonal process is also strong.I’ve done some work with psychodrama, the Way of Council. So I’ve done a lot of other group work that informs the way I do it, and unfortunately, Jalaja is not teaching anymore, but someone could come to my website. She has written books on her way, which might not be exactly the way I’m describing it, but it provides a lot of foundations and understanding about group work.
[00:26:00] Dr. Sharp: Well, I encourage anybody to go check it out. It’s been remarkable just seeing and living vicariously through you over these past several years and seeing how this works out and how you’re bringing circle energy to our family.Carrie: I have. We’ve done it as a family. I love those moments. I’ve done circles with the kids and you and it’s great.
Dr. Sharp: I’m very grateful.
Carrie: So now it’s my turn…
Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I think so.
Carrie: …To turn the tables.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah.
Carrie: Yes. Well, I’m excited about this, that I get to interview you.
Dr. Sharp: I’m scared.
Carrie: You should be. I just want to acknowledge that this is the [00:27:00] 500th episode of The Testing Psychologist podcast and brings us right there to what achievement that is.
Dr. Sharp: Thanks. It’s persistence, if nothing else.
Carrie: Yes.
Dr. Sharp: Or stubbornness.
Carrie: It’s something that you have. So looking back on this whole journey, 500 episodes, take us back to starting the podcast and what was going through your mind. What was the inspiration for doing this?
Dr. Sharp: It’s crazy to think back that far. That was 8 years ago. It was January 2017. I’d started the process probably 6 months before that, so that was the time when I first got in touch with a business coach and went that route because I’d had my [00:28:00] practice for 6 or 7 years at that point and felt like I had it down, which seems silly now in hindsight and knowing everything that happened after that.
But at that moment, I felt like I’d mastered private practice and I was ready for something different. So I hired this business coach to figure out what to do with the practice. I knew that I enjoyed teaching, but I did not want to be a teacher. I didn’t want to do an adjunct or go do a formal professor thing at the university, but I knew that I liked teaching.
Luckily, this coach, Joe Sanok, he was my first business coach. I’ve talked about that. He hosts the Practice of the Practice, which I think was one of the original mental health business-oriented podcasts. And to his credit, he said, well, there’s no podcast in this testing space. So why don’t you go that direction?
[00:29:00] At that time, I had no idea. I follow directions well though. He said, “Do a podcast.” I was like, let’s give it a shot. I remember thinking, I don’t know what in the world I could talk about related to testing for more than 10 or 15 episodes. So in the beginning, there was a lot of just, hey, we’ll just see if this works and if it doesn’t, that’s fine. It was an experiment, if nothing else.Carrie: If you could go back, just imagining now that your 8 years ago self that’s starting this podcast and now that you’ve had the experience of 500 episodes, what would you tell yourself? What advice would you give to that newly first 3 episodes? What have you learned?
Dr. Sharp: Oh gosh. [00:30:00] Three things come to mind right off the bat:
1. Don’t do any editing yourself. I should have hired an editor or a post-production person from the very beginning, but of course, nobody ever does that. You have to do it yourself.
2. Don’t be afraid to challenge your guests a little bit more. I think my default is to be more agreeable than not. I’ve found that over the years, that makes for a little bit of a richer discussion to offer different viewpoints, or at least ask more challenging questions.
3. And then the last thing, at least right now that comes to mind is, that I probably tell myself to not be afraid to get more personal and be more vulnerable on the podcast and share personal struggles or difficulties. Those have [00:31:00] been some of the episodes that have been most popular and resonated the most. When I started, I felt like I had to be an expert. I think people like to see the humanity at the same time.
Carrie: How do you balance that now that you know that people want to see the humanity, want to know you and also there is a part of people learning and getting expertise?
Dr. Sharp: I think the frame has shifted a little bit for me where in the past I would just present the information as here’s what you could do, here’s what the research says, here’s what the business books say, or whatever.
Now my frame is more like, hey, I’ll present that information, [00:32:00] but I have very little trouble weaving in the personal stories of, here’s where I messed this up. This is the way I did this wrong, things like that, and just trying to be a little bit more deliberate about sharing all of the things that I talk about on the podcast.
I have done wrong or messed up at least once, usually multiple times. I hope that that’s coming through and it’s not just, here’s what you do, but this is what I did. Here’s how I learned from it, or here’s how I’m still struggling with it.
Carrie: I think that takes a lot of courage to show where you’re messing up and publicly state that. So I admire that. I think it’s hard to do. [00:33:00] I do think we all want to hear that; we want to hear the vulnerability and know that I’m not the only one messing it up.
How do you think having our two children and having this family life because 8 years ago, our daughter was three and our son was five, how has having a family affected you? Because it’s not just the podcast. I think your listeners probably know, you got a group practice and now Reverb. How do you think our lifestyle has affected your work? Talk a little bit about the challenges of having young kids and doing everything you’re doing.
Dr. Sharp: Let’s take a break to hear from a featured partner.
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Let’s get back to the podcast.
That’s a big question. The first thing I think of is just that I couldn’t do it without being in a great partnership. We’ve had to do a lot of negotiating over the years with time and how I’m spending time, how you’re spending time.
It’s not for the [00:36:00] faint of heart, I don’t think to have two entrepreneurs in the family or two business owners. That’s the first thing. I definitely could not have done it without just being supported, which I really appreciate.
I’m trying to think. It’s hard to remember back then. I remember working on the weekend. When I started the podcast, there was a lot of weekend stuff because I was doing the practice at the same time.
There’s always been this thread, I don’t know if you remember, but back when I started my private practice, the one thing that I said was, I just want to be able to pick them up from school every day. That’s a goal for my schedule.
And even though I was working on the weekends and sometimes [00:37:00] at night after they would go to bed and stuff, I feel like I did okay. I did pretty well at sticking to that. And that’s been important and invaluable.
There’s this whole other dimension of how to share about our personal life and our kids on the podcast because parenting has its own struggle and I’ll talk about parenting here and there with my guests. We talk about kids’ development a lot and I’m always negotiating how much I share about our kids versus keeping it pretty general or academic.
I think I’ve erred on the side of not sharing a whole lot. I’ve commented two times here and there, but I think that’s something that probably anybody in the space works with. [00:38:00] A lot of the audience knows how much you share about your own family and your own kids if you have them, and personal experience with clients and things like that.
So I’m going through all of that as well. I don’t know if I answered that question at all, but those are some things off the top of my mind.
Carrie: Well, and some things I want to name is that you’ve had to be a lot more thoughtful about your time, your balance, and being very efficient. You definitely are skilled in those ways that it makes sense that Circlework might feel a little harder, like the dancing because the way your brain works is efficient, which is great. That’s why we’re a good match.
But what I have witnessed from the outside is I see how hard you work at time management and then also being able to set things aside and tend to the kids [00:39:00] or to me or to the family. None of us are perfect at it, but I feel like that’s something that if anybody, it’s not easy, but I’ve seen you’ve had to work really hard to be able to be present.
We’ve had so many conversations about not regretting that you’ve worked during their childhood. And so you’ve been very intentional at, well, that email is not going to get sent out, or that things not going to get done, or someone else is going to be disappointed because I’m picking them up from school, and I have to leave this time.
I think that that’s something I’ve seen you struggle with because it’s like you’re always having to see who you’re going to disappoint and you made a line in the sand about not disappointing them or yourself. I’m sure there are times that you’ve had to work that you wish that you didn’t, but I feel like [00:40:00] I’ve watched you walk that line of trying to show up as a partner and a parent while also trying to show up for the podcast, the episode you said was going to be out, the employee, all that stuff. So that’s felt like a big balancing act.
Dr. Sharp: I appreciate you saying that. That means a lot. I’m always thinking about it, but I’m glad that’s what’s coming through.
And you’re right. I think a lot of us work with that as just making those choices. I think when you have kids, and you have a business or multiple businesses, and a partner and personal commitments, and all those things, nothing’s ever 100%, or if something is 100%, then something else is 50%. It’s always this balancing, [00:41:00] taking from one to build the other. It’s important. I’ve tried to be present for them as much as I can. It’s good to hear that comes through.
Carrie: This is a shift, but I’m just curious, what has been the most ridiculous, silly, or if there was a blooper or something like recording the podcast or during this time working that you’re like, oh my gosh, if people could see this now. Do you have a moment that you think this is ridiculous?
Dr. Sharp: Oh my gosh. I don’t know if it’s a single moment, but if people could see the number of times that I rerecord an introduction or something. There’ve been times I’ve sat in front of my computer for 30 minutes trying to record a 1.5-minute introduction.
[00:42:00] It just gets progressively more ridiculous, and you know this, you have a podcast. You do it two times, you’re like, okay, now it’s going to be good. And then you do it again and you’re like, ooh. I’m talking out loud to myself. I’m like, what are you doing? Get this under control. And then it just amps up even more and then it’s more that it messes up.Those are probably the silliest moments when I’m here alone in my office cursing and rereading the script or whatever, and just trying to nail those introductions. That’s happened many times.
Carrie: Many times. Yes. I just did that the other day. It’s like, you don’t want to be reading, but you don’t want to say, um, 100 times. So you have to get it just right. And the more you do it, the worse it’s getting. I’ve been there.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I don’t know though. The episodes have been pretty, as far as I can remember, I’m sure there was some craziness at some point, but [00:43:00] it was pretty straightforward. Guests are pretty accommodating and polite.
Carrie: What’s your favorite thing about doing the podcast?
Dr. Sharp: I don’t know. I love it. I always say it’s my favorite part of the week. I think that’s still true. There’s probably two things. We’ve talked a lot about me and my personality is I love learning things and mastering things.
And so that process of being able to talk with experts and ask them any question that I want, learn about things and even researching the solo episodes and digging deep into a topic and finding out like, well, what is the science behind Google reviews, consumer pricing or whatever it may be? I love gathering knowledge in that way.
[00:44:00] And then, like you said earlier, the connection has been fantastic. The podcast has been an avenue to not just connect with the guests who on the whole have been fantastic. They’re all so knowledgeable and great guests, and making connections one-on-one, but then the podcast being an avenue or vehicle for connecting with other folks around the country; the podcasting other consultants. It’s opened up the world a lot.I don’t take that for granted at all. The fact that I could go to almost any part of the country and I would probably know someone and be able to go to coffee or whatever, and just have a connection. That’s pretty special. The podcast has done that.
Carrie: When did you realize that it was making a difference [00:45:00] or that people were listening? Because there’s a moment where you’re just talking into the void and then it becomes something. I’m curious about that time.
Dr. Sharp: I forget the date. I think it was around COVID maybe. So that was 3 years in. I don’t know. I’d have to go back. I might be getting this wrong, but there were two things that happened. One was, I did this episode 119 with Donna Henderson, Autism and Girls and Women. That really blew up. It’s still my most downloaded episode and in large part due to Donna’s expertise and just people interested in that topic.
But that blew up. I was looking at the downloads and I was like, oh my gosh, this is a ton of people. And then right around that time, we got into COVID. I was doing more episodes on remote [00:46:00] assessment and partnered with Pearson to do some episodes on how to administer the WISC over telehealth.
People needed that right at the moment and just started getting more feedback and more outreach for speaking and things like that. And so that may have been a little bit of a turning point. It’s still easy to forget though, honestly, that there are real people out there who listen.
It’s been nice to get into Reverb, which is our software company. I think a lot of people know about that by this point and jump on our sales calls. I would say 80% of the folks that I talked to will say something about the podcast or the Facebook group. And that’s been really nice to just be able to connect with folks who are out there listening. It makes it more real.
Carrie: I think it speaks to the persistence because for 3 years, [00:47:00] just day in and day out, and that’s something that I’m guessing your listeners know that you’re a long-distance runner. Do people know about that?
Dr. Sharp: I think so. I think I’ve talked about it.
Carrie: Talk a little bit about that and how that running is meaningful for you because I think it translates a lot into what you used to maintain the Facebook group, the podcast, and the group practice, even when it gets hard. I’m curious for you to talk about that. It’s such a big part of your life, running.
Dr. Sharp: For sure. I don’t know that I have anything revolutionary to say about this, but it’s all the things, all the clichés that go along with running. You get up and do it even if you don’t want to do it.
There are many days, especially in the Colorado winters where I do not want to get up and run in the morning, but I know that it’s going to be better [00:48:00] after I do it. That’s a parallel for sure. There are times when I’m like, oh my gosh, I have so much to do. Can I take the time to research all this and put these episodes together? But it’s always great when it’s done.
I think it’s, gosh, maybe Seth Godin. Did he write the book? Maybe it’s called the practice, anyway, or the work or something like that. He talks about how you just do it.
That’s built into my personality. Maybe it’s stubbornness, maybe it’s rigidity, maybe it’s inflexibility, but for better or for worse, I pick things and I do them, and running is a big part of that. It’s just the practice. I know I’m running four or five days a week. And then it’s the same with the podcast. I’m dedicated to it and I know I’m going to do it. And that’s [00:49:00] a big part of doing anything. If you’re going to do it, you got to do it.
And then there’s all this stuff around pain endurance and getting through hard stuff, not quitting when you want to quit. I think all that’s probably relevant, and baked in there somewhere. It’s also my stress relief too. And that it helps me think more clearly. So on the days when I run, I feel like I show up a little sharper.
Carrie: Yeah. I know this, but I think the listeners might be interested. That’s your strength, but every strength has a challenge. So what’s your growth? Where have you seen these ways of doing things, or you look back and some of that persistence, you would do it differently or that you need to work [00:50:00] on? What’s your …?
Dr. Sharp: I would probably experiment a little bit more. I think that’s the other side of that equation of being persistent and routine is that, I don’t experiment a whole lot. I like to stick with what works. So I would have experimented earlier, different types of episodes or trying to launch that in-person event quicker instead of waiting so long. It’s all just fear. Being worried that it wouldn’t work out or people wouldn’t like it or something.
Again, probably challenge my guests a little bit earlier, but I think that’s the flip side of the routine, the predictability and the persistence are getting locked in and being a little more rigid, like I said. [00:51:00] So anything to break out of the box a little bit, like trying new formats or maybe do video earlier or something like that.
Carrie: I’m hearing a lot of quicker too, not just doing different things, but doing it faster.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah. You know this, the audience probably doesn’t, but I take a long time to make decisions. I’d like to be quicker with a lot of these things.
Carrie: What is it like to be married to me who is the opposite? When you’re saying all that, I’m like, that’s interesting. I know this stuff, but …
Dr. Sharp: What is that like? At times exhilarating and at times infuriating.
Carrie: Same, same.
Dr. Sharp: Exactly. I think it goes both ways.
Carrie: Yeah.
[00:52:00] Dr. Sharp: I think it’s okay that we’ve influenced one another. I like that we’re able to talk to one another about what we do, especially now over the last few years. You understand the podcasting element, the consulting component, and private practice.I think we influence one another in good ways. You’ll throw these ideas out there and get me to consider different things. And then I’ll percolate for a long time and then you push a little bit more, and then I’ll make a decision, and vice versa maybe.
Carrie: Definitely.
Dr. Sharp: We slow things down.
Carrie: I would not have started my podcast had it not been for you starting yours. A lot of the things that you’ve done, I’ve taken inspiration from. I do think I’m the force of the spontaneity in the family and I challenge you that way. I’ve learned a lot from your consistency.
And while we [00:53:00] drive each other nuts with those same things, they can be a source of contention in our relationship. They’re also a strength in the way that we come together, so it’s been good.
I’m curious, if you had to pick because you have these three major roles that we’ve talked about; you’re the podcast host, you are Reverb, and also group practice owner, I guess consultant. Are any of these feel closer to the true you? If you were only allowed to do one, which one feels closest to your natural way in the world?
Dr. Sharp: Wow, that is a hard question. I think they all have pretty strong elements, and different components. I really don’t know. [00:54:00] If I had to pick, I don’t know that I can answer that question.
That’s really tough. This is deliberate. I have crafted them in ways that work. I’m 25% extrovert, 75% introvert, or maybe I don’t know, 60%, 40% or something. And they’re all like that, I’m around people with my practice, but I also do a lot of independent work as part of that.
It’s the same with a podcast. I do a lot of independent research, but then have a portion that’s face-to-face where I’m interviewing or consulting with folks. I love the connection part, but I do love independent research time and personal project time.
Reverb’s the same way. I [00:55:00] spend a lot of time on sales calls, but then the majority of my time is probably independent projects and working on things for the business. So that’s funny. I haven’t thought about that, but they all have this probably 60, 40-ish mix of independent versus connected or people time. And I’m sure that’s not a coincidence.
Carrie: And clinical work felt like straight clinical work that wouldn’t have fit.
Dr. Sharp: I don’t think so. I don’t think I could do full-time clinical work at this point. There are too many other things to learn, engage in, and people to talk to, but I love it in moderation. I don’t think I’ll ever give it up, but I don’t know that I’ll go back to full-time clinical work at this point.
Carrie: Is there anything that you think [00:56:00] your audience would be very surprised to know about you outside of the podcast?
Dr. Sharp: I don’t know. Maybe my preferred music genre is rap and hip-hop. I don’t know if that’s surprising or not. I’ve been a total rap, hip-hop fan since I was 14, that hasn’t changed since high school. I don’t know what else? You probably know better than I do.
Carrie: Well, the hard part for me right now is I don’t know what you’ve shared. I haven’t listened to all the podcast episodes. So there is a little element of mystery of like, I am trying to get into the minds of the listener, and at the same time, you’ve started to do more personal episodes. And so you may be sharing more than I know.
It’s interesting too, to be me interviewing you because I know all these [00:57:00] things about you. So I’m asking you questions, some of them I don’t know the answer to, and some of them I do. It’s just an interesting place to be.
I do know that in my experience in our life friends and whatever are curious to know about you because you’re not the first person to share a bunch of intimate details or your inner workings that it takes someone asking you questions. It takes someone being interested for you to share about yourself. So my guess is that there’s a lot of things you haven’t shared that people might be curious about.
What’s something you wish people would ask about? Is there anything in your life that you’d like to talk more about or that you feel like no one ever asked about?
Dr. Sharp: Oh, I don’t know. Not really. I feel like I’m a pretty simple person. Honestly, [00:58:00] I like to learn things. I like to talk to people in interviews. I like to be good at what I do, but it’s pretty circumscribed. I don’t know that I’m a super interesting person, necessarily, man.
I don’t know what else I would want people to ask about. I could talk about running all day. I could talk about silly things, crossword puzzles, scrabble strategy, and things like that.
Carrie: What consumes your thinking when you’re not thinking about work?
Dr. Sharp: Oh, gosh. That’s a hard question. Books to read. Topics to research on the internet. Coding software. I do a lot [00:59:00] of random, oh, probably personal improvement stuff. I’m looking at what these rucksacks to carry weighted plates around, the benefits of cold showers versus warm showers or whatever, random stuff like that. I do a lot of that kind of stuff. What else? Soccer strategy, how to score gymnastics events, things that relate to our kids for sure.
Carrie: And what’s your, why? The question you ask is, why do this? Why are you doing all this?
Dr. Sharp: I want to give the virtuous answer and say it’s to help people, to spread knowledge, to distribute free information and those things. All that’s important, but if I’m being honest, [01:00:00] I just love it. It’s a lot of fun.
Like I said, I get to learn as much as I want to about whatever topics I want to in this realm. I get to develop skills. It’s challenging. It keeps me interested. It’s motivating. All those things.
Carrie: I want to ask another, maybe it’ll be a hard question, but I want to know what has been the hardest time on this journey, the most challenging parts?
Dr. Sharp: With the podcast specifically?
Carrie: No, I don’t think you need to stick to the podcast because you talk about all your work, so if something stands out; the group practice, Reverb, I think those would all be interesting.
[01:01:00] Dr. Sharp: I’ve talked about on here, probably the last year or so with the practice before making that transition, that’s the toughest time. As I think I talked about, it was challenging to navigate.The worst thing in the world for me is feeling like people are mad at me. With the practice, toward the end especially, it got to the point where it felt like 90% of my job was just working through what it’s like for people to be mad at me, which you could argue is like a cosmic karma thing. This is the work that I need to do, but frankly, I just didn’t want to do that work anymore. And so I would rather practice working on that [01:02:00] here, or in my close relationships or something. So that was hard.
Carrie: You get enough of it for me. I can work on …
Dr. Sharp: I get enough practice.
Carrie: … when he’s mad at me or when the kids are mad at me, that’s good.
Dr. Sharp: Ultimately, just feeling like I was disappointing people. That was really hard over and over. It was stressful. It wasn’t super fulfilling.
Like I said, a big part of my job was just navigating problems, and there wasn’t a whole lot of joy there, but I stick with things. I had a really hard time making that decision to change things up and scale back for a lot of reasons. That was probably the toughest. There are a lot of layers to that: working through failure and what that means about me and my identity as a business owner and all those things. That’s a lot.
Carrie: And what’s it like now to [01:03:00] be in a different place than that?
Dr. Sharp: It feels better. Thankfully, you were super supportive and patient in all those conversations. My consultation group was fantastic in helping me work through some of those things. It was really tough.
I’m almost a year on the other side of when I first started telling people that we were going to scale back, and it feels totally different. It’s much less stressful and more joyful. I think the people who are here are more content, doing good work, and feeling connected to one another.
Carrie: It’s huge.
Dr. Sharp: That’s important.
Carrie: Yeah.
Dr. Sharp: It’s been a journey.
Carrie: It has. So one final question is, what do you think the key has been [01:04:00] to us staying married through all of this?
What do you think? Though, a lot of people ask me about that, about us both being ambitious and having the careers that we have, kids, and all that we’re balancing. I do think we’ve done some things intentionally. I don’t know if you’ve shared some of that stuff with your listeners, but I’m curious to hear what you’d have to say.
Dr. Sharp: Clearly, my sense of humor and ability to keep us on track. I think we’ve both been pretty patient, forgiving of one another, and understanding when we’re under stress, needing certain things, need more time or whatever it may be, and that’s [01:05:00] helped a lot.
I think the dedication to our kids was pretty; they are our anchor. We show up for them, and I think that pulls us together to a degree. However, for many years, we’ve been doing these standing weekly day dates. I can’t remember if I’ve talked about that here, but the day date is underrated for sure.
So we do this weekly date on Fridays from 1.00 PM to 3.00 PM while our kids are at school because we’re so busy at night with activities and stuff. That’s been really nice. If nothing else, we know that we can come together for two hours once a week and just catch up, check in with one another, and ground a little bit, and I think that’s helped [01:06:00] a lot.
Carrie: I think the weekly meetings are a big deal. It goes even back to some of that stuff I talked about with bringing circle energy. We’re very intentional. We walk a lot of the time. We have intentional prompts. So we’re not just talking about business, how are you? How are you really? The intentional connection has gotten us through.
They haven’t always gone well, but to feel prioritized even in the midst of all the craziness and that we’re prioritizing our relationship, and then to also make sure that we’re dropping in at a place that isn’t just, are you picking up from soccer? Are you going to this? I feel like it’s a game-changer. And to know that we have that space has made all the difference.
I think it also helps that I [01:07:00] respect and admire what you’re doing. I’m on board with what you’re doing and it feels good to feel proud of you. And that matters.
Dr. Sharp: Likewise.
Carrie: It has always been easy. There’s been rough times but when it’s gotten hard, we’ve doubled down and done what we needed to do to take weekends away also, an overnight or a weekend away, and even times by ourselves, that we’ve supported each other go to a hotel in town, I’ve done that. And you’ve supported me in like, I need to go work in a hotel. That balance has made a huge difference for us.
Dr. Sharp: 100%. It’s funny to think of it this way, but [01:08:00] I have a lot of respect for what you’re doing. And like you said, proud of what you’re doing. I think that goes a long way. It does help get on board and support one another.
But I want to be super clear. I feel self-conscious. We’re just glazing each other all day here, but it has been hard. There’ve been a lot of hard moments, but it’s cool to reflect back and recognize, especially at this point in our lives, we’re at that age where not all of our friends are doing super well. It’s been cool to recognize that something’s working. I am very grateful.
Carrie: Me too. So what’s next? Do you imagine 1000 episodes?
Dr. Sharp: Oh gosh. Eight more years.
Carrie: Yeah. Do you know?
[01:09:00] Dr. Sharp: I don’t know. I’ve said this to a few people who I have interviewed at our practice. They say, what’s the long-term plan? And for the first time in a long time, I don’t have a really clear long-term plan. Usually, I’m a big one-year, three-year, five-year kind of person. It feels nice to just be settled in some equilibrium, I guess.The practice feels very stable. We’ve self-limited by moving into one office suite so we can’t keep growing. We have limited office space. So we’re not growing. With the podcast, I am happy with what it’s doing. I’m going to continue to try to get fantastic guests and try new formats here and there.
I’m excited about my in-person Crafted Practice, which will be happening for the 3rd [01:10:00] time this year, and keep doing that. Maybe add some more little in-person events throughout the year.
And then, of course, Reverb. We’re putting a lot of energy into Reverb, and who knows where that’s going to go, but we are growing steadily and quickly, and getting great feedback, and that’s super exciting too.
So I don’t know that I have a clear long-term plan, but that’s okay. I’m rolling with it. I feel like I’m putting more energy into long-term family plans than anything. As our kids are heading into late middle school, and high school, we really got to be thinking about how we spend our time with them and what our summers and vacations are going to look like, and things like that.
Carrie: I’m loving that the focus is turned to our adventures and our trips. That’s what’s consuming my outside of work times; how do we make some memories with these kids? [01:11:00] Because it just goes so fast. It’s like once they’re in middle school, I’m like, the days were so long when they were in elementary and now they are flying by.
Dr. Sharp: Exactly.
Carrie: Well, this has been lovely. Congratulations on 500 episodes, and thanks for having me. I think I took it pretty easy on you. I don’t think I was too hard.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah, it could be a lot worse.
Carrie: It could have been worse, right?
Dr. Sharp: Yeah.
Carrie: But I’m like, oh, you said challenge your guests. I don’t know what more challenge I could have given you.
Dr. Sharp: It’s okay. This is fun.
Carrie: This is fun.
Dr. Sharp: Thanks.
Carrie: Thank you.
Dr. Sharp: All right, y’all. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode. Always grateful to have you here. I hope that you take away some information that you can implement in your practice and your life. Any resources that we mentioned during the episode will be listed in the show notes, so make sure to check those out.
If you like [01:12:00] what you hear on the podcast, I would be so grateful if you left a review on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
If you’re a practice owner or an aspiring practice owner, I’d invite you to check out The Testing Psychologist mastermind groups. I have mastermind groups at every stage of practice development: beginner, intermediate, and advanced. We have homework, we have accountability, we have support, and we have resources. These groups are amazing. We do a lot of work and a lot of connecting. If that sounds interesting to you, you can check out the details at thetestingpsychologist.com/consulting. You can sign up for a pre-group phone call, and we will chat and figure out if a group could be a good fit for you. Thanks so much.
[01:13:00] The information contained in this podcast and on The Testing Psychologist website are intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for professional, psychological, psychiatric, or medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.Please note that no doctor-patient relationship is formed here and similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host or guests of this podcast and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of any mental health practitioner or medical provider, please seek one in your area. Similarly, if you need supervision on clinical matters, please find a supervisor with expertise that fits your needs.
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