16 Transcript

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[00:00:00] Dr. Sharp: Hey y’all, welcome to The Testing Psychologist podcast episode 16.

Hey, welcome everybody to another episode of The Testing Psychologist podcast. Hope you’re all doing well today. I’m excited to be talking with Kelly Higdon today on the podcast. Kelly is a licensed marriage and family therapist in California, and she’s a co-founder of Zynnme and the Business School Bootcamp for Therapists, something you might have heard of in the mental health consulting world. Her Business School Bootcamp helps therapists start, grow, and expand their private practices.

On the personal side when Kelly isn’t coaching or teaching, you can find her spending time with her family or tearing it up on the roller derby [00:01:00] track, which we might talk more about as we go along because that’s super interesting to me.

Kelly, welcome to the podcast.

Kelly: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. Thanks for coming on. Kelly and I were introduced by Joe Sanok who I’ve talked about, I’ve done some consulting with Joe in the past. What I’ve found is when you get into the world of mental health private practice consultants, it’s a pretty small world and all the people that I’ve connected with so far are cool. Kelly is one such person.

Kelly: Thanks.

Dr. Sharp: So I am pumped to have our conversation here today.

Kelly: Me too.

Dr. Sharp: Good. Maybe we could just start, Kelly, could you talk to me a little bit about how you got into being a therapist but then I’m interested in how you transitioned to doing coaching and consulting.

Kelly: I would say it’s funny when you asked me [00:02:00] that question because looking back now, everything has not been planned. So becoming a therapist was because I failed a biology class and was pre-med and I was definitely down this track and then I freaked out and had this re-evaluation about what am I doing? And I ended up becoming a therapist.

And then as I was doing my hours, I started working for the government and I was climbing the ladder. And then again, I was pushing paper and supervising and all these kinds of things and running this huge clinic, and then I thought, what am I doing?

I went into private practice and then as I started my private practice, that’s where I met my business partner Miranda Palmer and we started Zynnyme. Because I [00:03:00] grew my practice quickly with her help and I was like, can we automate some of this stuff that you do because this seems tedious to do it over and over with each client on a one-on-one basis? And that’s how we started that.

So it was never my intention:

a) To be a therapist.

b) To go into private practice.

c) Become a consultant, but it naturally flowed by evaluating my life and what I wanted my life to look like, and then how could I still meet needs and be happy.

So that’s how I grew. From starting Zynnyme, we started with very different programs but soon realized that many therapists were winging it in business. They knew how to be clinicians but they were co-mingling their money. They were marketing on the fly and trying [00:04:00] this shotgun approach where they were just seeing what hit and what didn’t.

I thought, if we could help them be a little bit more streamlined, it makes you a better clinician. It can also help improve your clinical outcomes because you have processes that you can track and measure. And so that’s how Business School Bootcamp started as well.

Dr. Sharp: How long have y’all been doing that now?

Kelly: I think we’re in our fourth year.

Dr. Sharp: That’s fantastic.

Kelly: I really should know. We’ve been together for seven years but Bootcamp’s been around for four. We’ve had psychologists, social workers, mental health clinicians, professional counselors, and marriage and family therapists in it.

Dr. Sharp: That’s fantastic. I’ve heard so much from folks across the field and in the Facebook groups that I’m a part of speaking positively about Bootcamp and what it’s done. [00:05:00] It’s a cool resource.

Kelly: Thank you.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah, for sure. It sounds like your path has been different than you expected.

Kelly: Always.

Dr. Sharp: The cool thing about that, though, is it sounds like you went with it and chose the paths that fit for you and for your life and were willing to adapt when you needed to.

Kelly: Yeah. And that’s something I’m passionate about helping people understand whether I’m working with a therapist or I’m doing consulting in other areas your business decisions should not be soul-sucking, they should be life-giving. And so often we end up doing things in our practices because we feel like we have to or it should be done this way, but what if y’all had said that, do you think he’d be the therapist he is and have had the impact or all these kind of therapy [00:06:00] greats and researchers, if they had just said, well, that’s the way it has to be, we wouldn’t have expanded.

And so I’m always trying to see where there is room for growth so that we could have more stability and balance and joy in the way we’re doing things. This should be fun. I believe that.

Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. I think I’m sure you’ve run into this, that through graduate school and training, that doesn’t come out for a lot of mental health practitioners that it’s possible to:

1. Build a practice

2. Make money from it.

3. Enjoy it.

It’s rare that those components get talked about.

Kelly: Right, the system is set up such that it’s a, we have a hierarchy, you don’t know anything until you’ve done your hours. After you’ve done your hours, you have to pass your exams. [00:07:00] After you’ve passed your exams, even though you’re a licensed clinician, and maybe you can do your testing and you can do therapy, you still are not the level where you can supervise. You got to work towards that.

And then what about your specialty certificates? So it’s always more. The truth of the matter is, yes, I hope that I am a better clinician. I better be a better clinician 10 years from now. I will always be growing but that does not mean I am not good now. It doesn’t negate where I’m at currently.

For those of you who are like, yeah, I’ve never had someone tell me that can be done, remember that when someone comes out of school and interviews you or you’re supervising, you have a great influence to change the trajectory of how mental health is treated in your community and [00:08:00] how your clinicians own it and celebrate it. We’re all part of that. We’re all part of the solution just as much as we’ve been part of the problems.

Dr. Sharp: I think that’s really important. Of course, a lot of the folks who listen are testing specialists who do a lot of assessment and with some aspects of that, I’m thinking particularly like with psychologists and neuropsychologists, that is prevalent where the training track is pretty rigid and it can get easy to get locked into expectations and doing what you think you should. It’s even hard to break out and do private practice sometimes from traditional training. That’s extra relevant for folks who are doing testing.

The thing that you said earlier, I want to talk with you a [00:09:00] lot about this lifestyle practice. It’s clear that that’s really important for you. I’d like to get into it from, for folks who are doing testing for sure but before that, can you describe, what your practice looks like right now? How have you done that in your personal life?

Kelly: Yeah. About two years ago, I sold the assets to my private practice. I took my clients virtually. I don’t take any new therapy clients. I work Tuesday through Friday. I drop my kid off at school. I get home about 8:30 AM and I finish at about 12:30. Sometimes I’ll have a therapy session till 1:30 PM or 2:00 PM and then my daughter gets home at 2:45 PM. So I work maybe 20 hours a week, if that, and then the rest of the time is with my family and like you said, on [00:10:00] the roller derby track.

I’m of the mindset that there’s a lot of stuff we do that we don’t need to be doing. Over the years, I’ve been trying to figure out what’s essential and what can be left to the side because, especially when you’re in your business, you want to do the things that generate income, not that generate stress and busy work. Sometimes there’s a crossover, but oftentimes there’s not.

I used to be a workaholic. I pride myself, I used to work 60 to 70 hours. I don’t know, something ridiculous. There just came a point where I was like, this is not good. I was getting migraines and sick and all sorts of things. And so I was like, okay, what am I doing to [00:11:00] myself here?

And so that has started a journey of understanding what kind of life am I creating. The bigger picture is than just the paycheck or helping my clients, it’s the whole shebang. It’s a good practice. It’s a good flow of income but it’s also a happy life and neither should be sacrificed for the other.

Dr. Sharp: That is important. As you talk about all that, I have a lot of questions, some emotional questions, there’s some practical questions. I’ll just go back to the beginning. Can you talk through how you sold your practice? I think that’s a rare thing and if I were listening, I’d be curious about how that happened.

Kelly: I sold the assets. There are two ways to sell your practice, which is if you have a clinic where you have clinicians and everyone’s going to stay there [00:12:00] and keep their clients, then you could sell your practice, versus me, I’m not going to sell the clients I have to whoever’s buying.

I had a website that I had established with really great SEO. I had a good call volume. I had certain things that were in place to get things running. I had the office set up, and all of that was taken care of. So when I say assets, I sold the website, I sold the marketing materials that were created and the furniture and all of it, so that I just walked away.

I had an attorney draw up the contract and then the promissory note and all that kind of stuff. So I relied heavily on an attorney to determine how to do that. And then there are some things like looking at the website and the call volume that [00:13:00] you could do a projection and then turn that into value. So that’s something that the attorney helped me with versus I think there are people that do sell larger practices or clinics.

Let’s say you’ve got some established processes and you have other people working underneath you and stuff like that isn’t going to really change. Someone’s going to come in and manage that all. You could sell that differently than what I did, which was just an asset.

Dr. Sharp: Got you. That’s interesting. I’ve not heard of the second way. I haven’t heard of just an asset sale. So it’s really curious to me. Huh?

Kelly: So then you think about what are your assets in your practice? You’ve got your testing materials, maybe you’ve got some other kind of assessment tools but there’s other things that you could be creating [00:14:00] like your website and your marketing and the other kinds of things. You may even have a process that’s unique in how you do your testing that’s proprietary. So there’s lots of different things to be thinking about.

Dr. Sharp: Interesting. So any of that, what you might call intellectual property would fall on that.

Kelly: It can. Yes.

Dr. Sharp: Okay. I’m thinking about the folks I know in private practice who do testing, a lot of us do have, I’m not sure if proprietary is the word, but we’ve definitely developed systems for doing testing and being efficient in writing reports, and that kind of thing so there may be some transferable assets there. It’s funny to think of it that way.

Kelly: Yeah. This happens with attorneys and things like that. I do think, why don’t we see that as therapists? I think therapists often are in their practices long-term past [00:15:00] retirement. Sometimes they do it into their 80’s, which is great about this work.

We’ve not been the most business savvy, let’s just be honest but if you look at a doctor’s office, medical clinics, attorneys, or other fee for service kind of providers, this is a common thing. And so we need to get our businesses up to the place where we can do those things.

Dr. Sharp: Mm-hmm. And something that I think is important in that process is I’ve heard people say, you have to work on your business and not in your business, and so being able to have a space to step back and re-evaluate how you’re spending your time and having time to look at your processes and not just be flying by the seat of your pants and just working all day.

Kelly: Right. [00:16:00] I think that being a neuropsychologist, a testing psychologist, you have a bit of an advantage in terms of, it’s a little bit more like somebody can come in and be you for the day. Could that happen and would it have a huge impact on the outcome of what you’re doing?

If you’re doing a testing battery, for example, you tell me, if you were sick one day and another psychologist came in and said, I’ve got this session, I’m going to do the testing for you, could it still be great or is what you’re doing so unique that nobody can do what you’re doing? I’m asking, teach me.

Dr. Sharp: Totally. I would like to think, of course, I have enough ego to say, of course, I’m unique and do a unique interpretation of all the test results but no, especially with the test administration, [00:17:00] at least in our practice, we run what I would call a tech model where I employ graduate students to administer the tests.

Kelly: Exactly. So that is a kind of model, though, that’s easily transferred to another psychologist to run. You know what I’m saying? Versus someone who’s butt in the chair doing the therapy, if I called in sick, someone could replace me, but it’s such a unique relationship and the process is so different versus like if you were just supervising all these other people, that’s something that someone can come in and help with. So I think there’s a little bit of an edge in terms of growth and potential of those kinds of things of sale and if you ever wanted to consider that. I could be totally wrong.

Dr. Sharp: No, I think there’s a lot of truth in what you’re saying. It feels relevant for me right now because [00:18:00] I just hired another psychologist to do what I do, which is pediatric assessment, which would give me more time to step away and do more of the administrative pieces. I’m going through this process of how I or how we as a clinic start to bring clients in who not just want to see me but want assessments through our clinic because that has a good reputation too.

Kelly: You bring up a point, maybe that’s more of a distinguishing factor when it’s less about the I and more about the we, then you know you’ve got something that can transfer around and has other growth potential.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah, for sure. I like that we got into this because I think testing is, especially if you’re doing fairly comprehensive lengthy batteries, it does lend itself to bringing on graduate students or [00:19:00] other psychologists to help and so there’s some real practice growth opportunity there.

And so even for folks who might be listening, who are maybe fresh in their career or just trying to add some assessment services, I would say it’s important to be thinking down the road and thinking is that something that you would ever want to consider? It’s a good business model.

We went off there for a little bit but it’s great. I wanted to ask you, though, you said something earlier about you had to figure out what was essential in your life and how that played into the work you’re doing in your practice. Can you speak at all to what kind of process you went through to figure that out for yourself?

Kelly: Yeah. It’s really funny. I made myself an experiment. I follow two things, there’s the Pareto Principle. I don’t [00:20:00] know if you’ve heard of that where…

Dr. Sharp: Is that the 80/20 Rule?

Kelly: Yeah, the 80/20 Rule. So I started stopping and looking at what I was doing and seeing, like, do I know that this contributes to the business? In different aspects of my life, does this better my marriage? Is this a great time with my family? So I just started looking at what I was doing and a lot of the time I didn’t know. So if I didn’t know, and if I didn’t love it, I got rid of it.

Dr. Sharp: Do you have examples of that?

Kelly: Yeah, I’ll talk in business terms since we’re talking about business primarily. So for example, why do when I wake up, I check my email? Why do I check my email multiple times a day? Why?

In boot camp, I encourage my boot campers to do this thing called RescueTime. It’s an app you can put on [00:21:00] your computer and see where your time is going. It’s like, how much of that email contributes to the bottom line? None of it. It’s a lot of back-and-forth stuff. It’s a lot of scheduling. It’s kind of a waste. It’s just like fluff.

And then if you apply that Pareto Principle to Parkinson’s law, which is, that work expands to fill the time available for its completion. If I set aside, okay, after I do my most creative activity in the morning, so this is another thing, I started realizing that the stuff I gave my first-morning attention to was the most mundane noncontributing stuff.

So I started to get rid of the email. I started to get rid of social media and then I started to replace that with time with my family and then after my daughter’s at school and stuff, I read, [00:22:00] I write. So it’s balancing and I would just play with it.

As my daughter has grown, my schedule has changed. It doesn’t look like it did four years ago, of course, when she was a baby. I am starting to a lot of what we do isn’t necessary and it frees up more time to be creative and enjoy what you’re doing. So the email was a big one. Social media is a big one. Those are big tech sucks for me. So I handle my email very differently than a lot of people. I don’t …

Dr. Sharp: Did you outsource it or eliminate it?

Kelly: I have two email accounts. I outsource the big one and my assistant writes a summary for me. So I have one email to look at. I go through and I [00:23:00] type the responses and she sends them off for me.

So I have one email a day from my main inbox to look at, and then my personal inbox, which I check twice a day. And I really don’t need to, but right now I’m in the middle of a launch, and so I just get a little bit anxious. I’m giving myself some compassion, and that’s what I do.

I get it down to just what’s essential. You’ll find you have a lot more time. And then what do you do at that time? You can be creative, you can do other things and expand your business or expand your personal life, that kind of stuff.

Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. Gosh, when you say you have one email to look at a day, I melted inside. That sounds amazing. How could we do that?

Kelly: You get an assistant and you teach them like, okay, these kinds of emails you archive, these kinds of emails, you can handle that. These kinds of emails, I need to see, send me a summary once a day. [00:24:00] And she sends it to me four times a week. So four emails from my huge main inbox summarized into a sheet of paper.

Dr. Sharp: I would just jump in and I haven’t talked about the value of an assistant on the podcast with testing, but that reminds me that having an assistant, whether it’s a virtual assistant or someone who’s in the office, has been one of the best investments I’ve made for our practice and for me personally, ever. It’s been a huge deal.

Kelly: If you’re listening and you’re thinking, I can’t afford an assistant, okay, well, then limit your email to once a day, check it, set a timer, 30 minutes, whatever you get to, you get to. And you start to teach people, I think we live in a society where we text and we expect an immediate response. We email, we expect an immediate response, but people will [00:25:00] learn like, oh, Kelly, she’ll respond tomorrow. She only checks her email once a day, like they start to learn.

So we have to teach people how to treat us, even in our business, not just our personal life. This is a boundary in business too. So if you’re feeling like I don’t have someone that can help me, well, you need to start parenting yourself and kind of limiting the stuff that’s distracting you from doing what only you can do, which is the work. That’s what’s unique and special. Do more of that.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah, for sure. I know I can just hear folks who are listening and one of the big things is they’re probably saying is, in testing, we have to write these reports and everybody I talk to is like, I hate writing reports. That’s my least favorite part of the deal, but it’s necessary. That’s our product. That’s what happens.

So I’m going to totally put you on the spot. I know you don’t do testing, [00:26:00] but you work with folks who do testing and have complained about report writing and how that takes up so much time, how can you streamline that or do time management around that?

Kelly: One of the things is I do teach eat the frog, do the stuff you don’t like to, the more you put it off, the more painful it becomes. I think also there is some mindset workaround that needs to be done. It’s interesting. You pick your niche around something you hate, the major part of it that you hate, like what’s going on there? I’m just curious, why go this route then if this is what you don’t love and figure out how to frame what these reports mean? I think we don’t love stuff when it lacks meaning.

And when you do something like reports over and over [00:27:00] again, it can start to feel monotonous, a little tedious. And so I think getting back and pulling back a little bit, getting up in the air and looking down at it and saying, okay, what is this that I’m creating? What does it mean to this person? How can this impact the person’s life? That can be very motivating.

And then the other side is, are there things you can do to make it fun? I don’t think sitting and writing your report for hours is a good idea. Think about your brain, especially if you’re a neuropsychologist, people, you know that your brain gets tired. You need breaks.

One of the things I teach is like the Pomodoro method where you can set the timer, do two tomatoes worth of, if you don’t know what that is, if you take a break, have a dance party, put on music, what can you do to make it more enjoyable?

Maybe there is something that is [00:28:00] hard about it that you struggle with, but can you make it more fun? Can you make it more peaceful? Do you need to change where you’re writing it? How you’re writing it? Do you need to dictate it? Those kinds of things too.

So there’s the bigger picture of your why that’s always good to go to. And then moving into some of the tools that you use and your environment and seeing how you can shift the process so that it’s not so painful.

Dr. Sharp: Those are fantastic ideas. It’s gotten me thinking, I did an episode on technology and testing, I know for me, I love technology. So I just recently started to dive into this tool called TextExpander, I don’t know if you’ve heard of that or not, it’s a piece of software that lets you [00:29:00] type in lengthy paragraphs, things that you type a lot and then you condense it down into a shortcut. So you just have to type the shortcut and then it auto-populates the whole paragraph.

And so that is interesting. Just being someone who loves technology, has made report writing fun for me again, because now it’s like this challenge where I have to figure out how to program it into text expander and make it …

Kelly: That’s like the ultimate geekery. I love it. People that don’t do testing, their struggle is even notes, they don’t get them done. And so having these processes and templates and tools is awesome. I love that you found that helps you.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah. It’s got me thinking too that, and this is a process I’ve gone through with your question of why are you doing something that you don’t like. And that idea of bringing meaning [00:30:00] to it is really important.

For me, I’m thinking, picturing how important this is for the family to get this assessment and get these results, in the past, I’ve rewritten all of my recommendation templates just to stay fresh and make sure it’s relevant for the families that I’m working with and that can help switch things up.

Kelly: For example, we have informed consent and all these kinds of things. It’s funny when you read them, they’re so dry, like this is the expectation. This is the cancellation policy. One of the things I teach in boot camp is why can’t we make this more relational? Why can’t it be something that’s giving and helpful to the person?

So like even my social media policy is written in my voice and my way [00:31:00] that connects. And so I think reports can be too. I know you guys have limits, you’ve got numbers and stuff you got to put in there. I just read one last week for one of my clients, which was great. It was helpful. It helped me be a better therapist for her, but I think too, even the way you write it, and the words you use, you have a chance to make a big impact beyond just the statistics or the results.

Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. I wonder how much we feel constrained …

Kelly: Right, why are we? Who set that rule up? We need to start asking this stuff a little bit more because otherwise, we’re going to get left behind. I feel like we need to stay relevant then in terms of understanding, why we do this. If you don’t like it, then you start figuring out why or what could be done differently and [00:32:00] still be of service and of benefit to those that you work for.

Dr. Sharp: We’ve talked a fair bit about balance and finding what works for you in your life and integrating that with your business. Are there any tools, Kelly, that you have that can help people sort through that and start to figure that out?

Kelly: I think one of the things that someone could do right now or after they finish listening to this is to go through what I call the Perfect Day exercise. Lots of people do this in other industries, but you guided meditation. There’s one on our website where you close your eyes and you walk through your perfect work day, not like sitting on the beach in Bali not working, unless you are working in Bali, awesome, good for you.

It’s basically from the time you wake up to the time you go [00:33:00] to bed, what does that day look like? I’ll give you an example, when my first one started with, the alarm goes off at, or no, the alarm didn’t even go off. I just woke up naturally at eight o’clock in the morning. That still is never going to happen because I didn’t know my child would wake up at 5:30 AM every morning but anyway, this is my perfect day. So I’m going to admit this is what I want.

My feet touch the wooden floor. I look out the window and I see trees and birds. And then I go through the whole day; what I ate, who I talked to, what am I doing? Who am I seeing? Who am I interacting with? All of it, every detail, and then you get a sense of like, okay, this is what I want.

One of the funniest things was I was not doing a lot of therapy. I was like, oh-oh, [00:34:00] what’s going on? I’m building a private practice and I’m not doing therapy on my perfect day. What the heck?

And so when you give your brain permission to be creative, it starts to think of things outside the box. So then you have an idea, okay, what could you do one step towards that perfect day? You may wake up an hour early. You may sleep in an hour late. You may change what you’re eating. You may just shift the times that you see your clients.

Whenever I help people psychologists go through this process, they oftentimes are like, I’m doing a lot of stuff I don’t want to do. I’m seeing a lot of people because I feel like I have to. And so then they start to shift their business and their marketing around and start playing with the idea of, oh, do I have to work evenings because I see kids? Do I have to work the weekend because I see families and then they [00:35:00] start challenging these stories and start more aligning with that perfect day?

I have a lot of my perfect days so I do this at least on an annual basis and just check in to see what I want to change. It’s not like it’s an endpoint, but it’s more like that process of as you’re growing, so is your vision for your life and being sure that you’re giving that some nurturance and attention.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I know that was a brief description, but I feel like that captures so much. Is there a place that folks could find that? You said there was some resource on your website to go through that exercise.

Kelly: We have tons of free training on our site at zynnyme.com/event and it’s in one of the webinars. It’s a private practice vision webinar and we take you through the process.

[00:36:00] Dr. Sharp: Okay. That sounds good. I’ll link to that in the show notes for sure, for folks who want to go check that out. Just that little brief snippet of the perfect day, this has been really good for me. I’m thinking through how that fits and I imagine a lot of other people are too.

From a testing perspective, this has got me thinking too, about maybe talking about that later down the road too, because I imagine, some of us go through that perfect day exercise and find aspects of our practices or maybe write reports that don’t fit, and there are some ways maybe to address that.

Kelly: I think so. I think there are lots of options and we only can discover them if we give it time and some attention.

Dr. Sharp: You’re right. Well, this has been fantastic, Kelly. I appreciate your time and the things that you have talked about [00:37:00] today. I’ve said many times, taking notes and thinking about changing some things here for me.

Kelly: Wonderful.

Dr. Sharp: There’s our two.

Kelly: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Sharp: Oh gosh, of course. This was great. If people want to learn more about you or ZynnyMe or coaching, what’s the best way to get in touch with you?

Kelly: Yeah. You just go to zynnyme.com and you can check us out there. If you want to know about me, I also have kellyhigdon.com, but if you’re a psychologist, you’re probably going to be most helped over at zynnyme.com.

Dr. Sharp: Got you. And just for anybody listening, zynnyme is zynnyme.com, right?

Kelly: Yeah. What a mess.

Dr. Sharp: That’s a whole other conversation, where did that come from?

Kelly: Yes. That was a marketing lesson.

Dr. Sharp: Fair enough. Well, thanks so much, Kelly. It was great to talk with you and take care.

Kelly: You too.

[00:38:00] Dr. Sharp: All right, welcome back, and thanks for listening to that interview with Kelly Higdon. Like I said, during the interview, there were so many times when I was writing things down and thinking about what she was saying.

I spent a lot of time reflecting after our talk on what my own practice looks like and just trying to walk through and think about those things that might not be ideal. I like that Kelly introduced the idea that we don’t have to do things we don’t want to do, which is a novel concept, as we’re building a private practice. It’s easy to slip into this pattern of just doing what we think we have to, and that’s not always the case. So that was valuable for me to be thinking about.

Thanks again, as always, for listening. This is fantastic. I’ve enjoyed talking with so many great folks over the course of these podcasts and continuing to learn about things [00:39:00] that I don’t know about and getting to meet and connect with all these wonderful people, and I hope that y’all have too, I hope you’ve enjoyed these conversations.

If you have, I’ll be very grateful if you do any amount of promoting that feels comfortable for you. So you can rate and review wherever you listen to your podcast. You can share the podcast with your colleagues and peers. You can share it on Facebook, you can share it on your blog, really anywhere that feels okay for you and all of that is very appreciated.

So as I’ve said, I have a lot of cool interviews continuing on the horizon, so stay tuned for those. We’ll catch you next time. Take [00:40:00] care.

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